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bug#20322: 25.0.50; indent-tabs-mode should default to nil


From: Dmitry Gutov
Subject: bug#20322: 25.0.50; indent-tabs-mode should default to nil
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 17:17:06 +0300
User-agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:36.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/36.0

On 04/17/2015 10:26 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

Yes, I know that.  I'm saying that this default doesn't bother me, as
long as the modes that I care about still default to non-nil.

It seems that you won't object to changes as long as they don't affect your our experience, even if you'd just have to change one line in your init.el.

I mentioned the default value because it's a technical consideration.

I meant "need" as in "most users of that language already use spaces".

So, you're open to considering C and C++ in this context, too?

I don't consider GitHub to be a representative sample for this matter.

Maybe not, but it's a sample we can research. And Emacs could do worse than become more friendly to the modern-ish audience.

Do you have a better sample in mind?

I don't see any complications.  Doesn't everyone have their own hooks
for every language they use, anyway?  I know I do, since almost the
first day I started using Emacs.  That hook is the place where users
could customize the variable, if they don't the defaults.

The members of those "everyone" shouldn't be bothered with a change in one tiny default value anyway.

I think you're overestimating the savvy-ness of an average Emacs user. Not every beginner is fine with writing Elisp (some spend years without doing so), and the more effort a user's first steps in Emacs take, the more likely they are to settle for something else, because they haven't yet been properly exposed to Emacs's benefits yet.

That's why I think the default are important, and that they shouldn't take the entrenched user base so much into account.

See above; and it doesn't have to be a lambda function, of course.
Mine has a name (my-c-stuff, if you want to know) and a doc string.

I also use hooks quite a bit in my init script.

We are talking about programmers, for whom having a mode hook is not a
problem.

Not necessarily Emacs Lisp programmers, though.

I'm actually guessing they already have such a hook anyway;
I cannot see how one can use a programming-language mode without a lot
of customizations, and the place to do that is in a mode hook.  This
is normal, routine practice in Emacs.

The user options (and the Customize interface; I think we haven't given up on it yet) should cover the core of what a user might want to change.

Here's the sum total of my current ruby-mode tweaks. One `eval-after-load', but no custom functions in ruby-mode-hook:

(add-hook 'ruby-mode-hook 'flycheck-mode)
(add-hook 'ruby-mode-hook 'robe-mode)

(eval-after-load 'ruby-mode
  '(progn
     (define-key ruby-mode-map (kbd "C-c :") 'ruby-toggle-hash-syntax)
     (require 'ruby-end)))

Plus a few installed packages, some of which use `add-hook' at the top level. I do have one related `add-hook' with a lambda commented out currently, but it's also tiny, and the above provide a satisfactory experience already.

I gave you my personal statistics on that: most of them use tabs.  And
I personally get annoyed whenever a project asks me to untabify my
submissions (but abide, of course).

Untabifying (or tabifying) should happen automatically, via project-local settings. There's even a cross-editor specification (as well as an Emacs package) for this: http://editorconfig.org/





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