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Re: Cocoa/Windows parallel dvlpmt
From: |
Gregory John Casamento |
Subject: |
Re: Cocoa/Windows parallel dvlpmt |
Date: |
Fri, 6 Feb 2004 21:07:36 -0800 (PST) |
Wade,
--- "Tregaskis, Wade" <wjtregaskis@students.latrobe.edu.au> wrote:
> >> Apart from AppKit: Please give me some examples! Or are you just
> >> talking out of the blue?
> >
> >I think this is where the Cocoa fans are diverging from the GNUstep
> >fans.
> >
> >For me, AppKit is what makes Cocoa magic. I could care less about the
> >Cocoa containers--I am comfortable with STL and don't really get a kick
> >out of the cool features of, say, NSArray. For me, Cocoa without AppKit
> >is entirely uninteresting. I like Interface Builder, and "springy"
> >views, and dialog controls that "just work" like you expect, and
> >control-dragging around to make my own actions and outlets. AFAICS
> >GNUstep is not going to give me a comparable "ease-of-development" as
> >Cocoa/AppKit, or even half as easy.
>
> Here, here. This was in fact exactly my point - great, GnuStep offers a
> usable app foundation. But it's not worth the bloat as compared to writing
> my own stuff, or using more lightweight alternatives (e.g. the STL,
> SDL/GDK/etc, etc). As a Mac user for over a decade I can't stand to force my
> users to take off an afternoon from work just to install some libraries my
> app requires (let alone the app itself!).
I guarantee that you've installed libs to get apps working after your initial
installation. Deny it and I'll believe that you're lying as it's a fact of
life, if you're running Linux. You're users should expect no less.
There are at least two side projects for GNUstep which aim to create a GNUstep
on Linux distribution.
> It's all the stuff on top of that foundation that makes Cocoa great.
> Including the development tools. The GnuStep tools are [imho] ugly and
> unintuitive. The PB replacement (named ProjectCenter, I believe) is in my
> experience very unstable, too.
Have you tried Gorm? It's the Interface Builder replacement for GNUstep.
Given that you can literally take a book for Cocoa and write an app using the
instructions in it while using Gorm, I would say that it is almost as intuitive
as IB. If you have any complaints let me know, as I am it's maintainer.
> [I should say, though, that for my current project on a Red Hat (9) box I'm
> using KWrite, because all the default Red Hat dev tools are too much of a
> pain or too unstable. So perhaps I'm biased, or just very unlucky.]
The former, most likely.
> >PS I could care less how CoreFoundation works under the covers. The
> >fact that GNUstep is in Objective-C from top to bottom is not a selling
> >point for me. If anything, it makes me think that Apple's
> >implementation will probably be a lot faster :) Objective-C is meant to
> >be easy to write, but I don't care how the guts of Cocoa are written; I
> >just want them to be fast and stable!
>
> Exactly. Apple's C-based CoreFoundation is an excellent way to drop down
> slightly from the message-passing overhead of ObjC, without losing all the
> benefits (e.g. polymorphism). And the automatic bridging between the two
> levels is a godsend.
CoreFoundation is one thing and one thing only: It was a way for Apple to
bridge Cocoa with the *ANCIENT* API known as Carbon.
> There's another point I must mention - an app compiled with GnuStep under Red
> Hat is an order of magnitude slower, in some areas, than one compiled using
> XCode.
Any hard numbers on this? If you've got a comparison between two machines of
comparable power, I would like to see this. Are you certain that apps, in
general, aren't slower on your Linux machine. Unless, of course, you're
running PPC Linux on a dual boot G4/G5 Mac.
> The Gnu ObjC runtime appears to be very slow, contrary to what it's
> maintainers claim. For the two projects I've considered using GnuStep for,
> the performance was simply too poor. Since I consequently had to write [at
> the least] the core of both projects in C/C++, I decided to just use GTK for
> the UI anyway, and the STL of course for my containers & algorithms. A much
> better solution, I've found.
Good for you.
> Wade Tregaskis
Later, GJC
=====
Gregory John Casamento -- CEO/President Open Logic Corp.
-- bheron on #gnustep, #linuxstep, & #gormtalk ----------------
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- Re: Cocoa/Windows parallel dvlpmt, (continued)
- Re: Cocoa/Windows parallel dvlpmt, John Stiles, 2004/02/03
- Re: Cocoa/Windows parallel dvlpmt, Nicolas Roard, 2004/02/04
- Re: Cocoa/Windows parallel dvlpmt, Chris Hanson, 2004/02/04
- Re: Cocoa/Windows parallel dvlpmt, Nicolas Roard, 2004/02/04
- Re: Cocoa/Windows parallel dvlpmt, Nicola Pero, 2004/02/04
- Re: Cocoa/Windows parallel dvlpmt, John Stiles, 2004/02/04
- Re: Cocoa/Windows parallel dvlpmt, Andreas Höschler, 2004/02/04
Re: Cocoa/Windows parallel dvlpmt, Tregaskis, Wade, 2004/02/04
Re: Cocoa/Windows parallel dvlpmt, Karl Kraft, 2004/02/04
Re: Cocoa/Windows parallel dvlpmt, Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf, 2004/02/04
Re: Cocoa/Windows parallel dvlpmt, Dave Thorup, 2004/02/05