Re: scrollbars [was: Re: really attracting developers]

[Rogelio M. Serrano Jr.]

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Phil Taylor wrote:

> 
> We are talking about GUI's on Linux, not GUI's in general. The Windows
> GUI is popular because Windows is popular and you cant have one without
> the other.

windows is forced on you. and it has been around so long that people
think thats thats how computers are supposed to work.

> Linux is different - you have the choice of GUI's, and both KDE and
> Gnome are already established and are highly configureable. People are
> used to having these facilities, and generally people dont like giving
> things up. I am sure that if someone were to release an configureable
> add on GUI for Windows (assuming it were technically possible which it
> is not) it would get a lot of attention. But then Windows users have
> never had that facility, so they dont miss it.
> 

yes thats right. thats why few people make a mess of their windows
desktop configuration. if windows made it configurable it will be worse.
its very easy to get x configuration wrong and not get a desktop at all.
and its not hard to imagine how bad windows would be if it is like that.

thats the same reason why the mac have limited user installable parts.
and even less configurability in the gui. sure you  can change themes
but you cant change the basic gui elements. like have the scrollbars and
menubars in different locations from one computer to the next.

less configurability is so much better. its when you have bad design
that you need customisations.

if we could not agree where scrollbars should be then scrollbars are bad
and i would rather not have them. same goes for the menubar.

> So i stand by what I have said. Gnome and KDE are established and highly
> configurable. If GNUstep si to compete or even displace these GUI's it
> has to be percieved to be at least as up to date as they are. GUI's of

no thats not going to work.

>> That being said, I'm glad that themes and different menu styles are
>> available in GNUstep and I think the default theme for GNUstep should
>> be Nesedah.
>>
> 
> I am surprised that this is the case, since you never get to see any
> evidence of it. Why not make it more obvious? For example every time
> Gnome or KDE release a new version they supply new splash screens,
> colour schemes and themes. It cant take that much developer resources to
> at least change a few colours.
> 

yeah and you know how much effort is wasted on getting these things to
work? M$ and Apple has big teams and the linux desktop people cant match
that. and the more the linux desktop tries to compete on the same terms
with windows and mac it will never be able to catch up. new ways need to
be found. step out of the box people. WIMP is not the future.

>>> When you design an interface, you cannot assume that what you like
>>> someone else will like. Perhaps thats obvious.
>>
>> Well, it's more than just what somebody will like.  In the case of
>> Apple and NeXT, significant psychological research went into studying
>> the way humans read, write, and interact with computer interfaces.  As
>> an example, we read from left-to-right in Western cultures and this
>> effects our priority when performing a visual scan of an object. 
>> That's a fact that cannot be denied and has nothing to do with
>> subjective appraisal of an interface.
> 
> I guess all that research is irrelevant from the perspective of any
> particular user, such as myself (or you). I know what I like and what I
> am comfortable with. I basically dont give a rats arse that some
> researcher in Cupertino thinks the scroll bar should be on the left if i

hah! until M$ decides its should be on the left! im sure the entire
world will agree. like a flock of sheep!


> Its these reasons why Windows is still so popular. You can install
> software and find it afterwards.
> 

really? it momentum thats sustaining it. and people who is unwilling to
find something new.

there is a significant number of people forced to use windows who needs
better solutions and IT people including are ignoring them.

- --
things i hate about my linux pc:

1. it takes more than a second to boot up
2. keeps asking about filenames and directories
3. does not remember what i was working on yesterday
4. does not remember all changes i have ever made
5. cannot figure out necessary settings by itself

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