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Re: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization
From: |
Stefan Monnier |
Subject: |
Re: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization |
Date: |
Mon, 20 Apr 2015 15:07:01 -0400 |
User-agent: |
Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) |
> I generally feel uncomfortable about a tool automatically editing a file
> that I assume to have control over, but maybe that's fine.
We all do. Yet that's also what custom.el does.
> A concrete problem I can think of is when one has some settings for
> package.el in their init file, then Emacs ends up putting
> (package-initialize) at the top, when it should be after the package
> related settings. Is this not a problem?
Oh yes. And there can be all kinds of other interesting cases.
> with a trick like this. WTF? It might be simple to implement, but
> conceptually it's rather confusing.
Well, conceptually it's simple as well, if you look at it from the
implementation point of view ;-)
> wrong (packages are automatically initialized after loading init.el if
> it hasn't been done there)
Actually, with the new code that auto-adds "(package-initialize)" to
~/.emacs, we should be able to get rid of this hack that calls
package-initialize if the .emacs didn't do so already (tho we'll need
to wait a little, for the usual compatibility reasons).
> and a sign of the package system being crudely bolted on top of
> existing machinery. That's stinky engineering.
Welcome to the world of long-lived programs that need to live with
backward compatibility.
BTW, having a separate pre-package init file would also be stinky
engineering imposed by hysterical raisins. Good engineering would
probably require re-thinking the whole customize-set-variables issue and
maybe also the semantics of defcustom. I'd be happy if someone were to
try and do the work of figuring out what a clean design would look like,
so we'd at least be able to assess whether we can hope to get there from
here without too much pain.
> I hope I'm not coming off as religious.
This is Emacs we're talking about.
> Yes, this is a more involved solution, but it brings some structure into
> Emacs initialization with regard to the role of the package system, and
> its interaction with Customize.
Right, and that's exactly what I don't want: I don't want to impose an
arbitrary structure that happens to suit the current needs.
Tricky dependencies between setting vars and loading their packages can
also exist within customize-set-variables without the existence of package.el.
> think it should be fine to leave that be and only load default.el and
> site-start.el after package initialization. Or can anyone think of
The difference between site-start.el and default.el is that one is
loaded before ~/.emacs and the other after.
Stefan
- Re: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization, (continued)
- Re: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization, Philipp Stephani, 2015/04/19
- Re: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization, Artur Malabarba, 2015/04/19
- Re: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization, Stefan Monnier, 2015/04/19
- Re: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization, Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer, 2015/04/20
- Re: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization, Stefan Monnier, 2015/04/20
- Re: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization, Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer, 2015/04/20
- Re: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization, Artur Malabarba, 2015/04/20
- Re: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization, chad, 2015/04/20
- Re: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization, Artur Malabarba, 2015/04/20
- Re: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization, chad, 2015/04/20
- Re: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization,
Stefan Monnier <=
- Re: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization, Mark Oteiza, 2015/04/20
- Re: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization, Thierry Volpiatto, 2015/04/27
- Re: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization, Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer, 2015/04/27
- RE: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization, Drew Adams, 2015/04/27
- Re: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization, Artur Malabarba, 2015/04/27
- RE: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization, Drew Adams, 2015/04/27
- Re: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization, Artur Malabarba, 2015/04/27
- Re: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization, Thierry Volpiatto, 2015/04/27
- Re: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization, Stefan Monnier, 2015/04/27
- Re: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization, Andy Moreton, 2015/04/27