Re: @dircategory (Re: Translating Emacs manuals is of strategic importance)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2024 12:25:55 +0000
> From: Jean-Christophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org>
> Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>, Vincent Belaïche 
> <vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr>, emacs-devel@gnu.org, Richard Stallman 
> <rms@gnu.org>, help-texinfo@gnu.org
> 
> > On Jan 6, 2024, at 20:38, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> > 
> >> 1. I read a manual in English, there is a link with a node in English,
> >> it directs to the other English manual.
> >> 
> >> It’s the expected behaviour.
> >> 
> >> 2. I read a manual in French, there is a link with a node in English,
> >> it directs to the other English manual.
> >> 
> >> If the other manual exists in French, it is not the proper behaviour.
> 
> I forgot. If I understand texinfo properly, if the manual name is 
> translated (and if the manual is translated) it is enough that the node 
> name is the same as in the target manual, so either both untranslated, 
> or both translated. So here, the node name only being left in English 
> is not so relevant. What matters most is whether the manual name is 
> translated or not. Am I correct?

Yes, I think so.

> >> 3. I read a manual in French, there is a link with a node in French, it
> >> directs to the other French manual.
> >> 
> >> If the other manual exists in French, it is the proper behaviour.
> >> 
> >> If it does not, we should have an error message that informs the reader
> >> that the manual is not translated.
> > 
> > I think case 3 should fall back to the English manual instead of
> > erroring out.  Having a manual without translation to an arbitrary
> > language will be the usual case for quite some time, so an error
> > message sounds like a harsh punishment to me.
> 
> Sure, but the situation where that would happen is indeed when there 
> are too few translated manuals to create a “monolingual ecosystem” 
> where manuals all link to each other.

Which is where we are now, and will probably remain for at least a few
years to come.

> Supposedly, the user has installed the manual independently and knows 
> that there will be limitations. Just like all web sites have default 404 
> pages and some have redirection, the error does not have to read like 
> a punishment.

It is an annoyance.  gettext shows the original English message if
there's no translation, and I think we should try doing the same in
Info.

> Btw, does your comment indicate that you are currently not strongly 
> opposed to translating the node names?

I'm not opposed, but I tend to think we shouldn't translate them until
Texinfo developers figure out how to handle these cases.