Re: A simpler remember architecture (was: Re: [Orgmode] Re: is there a hook to save a remember buffer?)

[Tim O'Callaghan]

+1, can we keep/have:
- the templates,
- possibility to 'pick file/topic first then remember'
- 'throw it into the bucket for later'.
- org - remember keymap
- local fontification?
- remove need to have remember package installed?

Tim.

2009/9/30 Carsten Dominik <address@hidden>:
> I don't know what the others think....
>
> ... but I think this is a brilliant idea.
>
> - Carsten
>
> On Sep 29, 2009, at 10:48 PM, Samuel Wales wrote:
>
>> Hi Carsten,
>>
>> Here is an idea for a much simpler remember architecture that
>> simultaneously solves Alan's problem.
>>
>>  1) To me also, a more complicated way to deal with
>>    remember buffers feels wrong.
>>  2) If there is more than one thing you are working on, the
>>    power of the org hierarchy feels like the best way to
>>    keep track.
>>
>>  3) The current remember probably does not do what Alan
>>    wants, even with a better workflow.
>>    - What if you want to remember from remember?
>>    - It feels complicated to finalize the old idea and go
>>      there, then remember the new one, then finish the old
>>      one, then go back to where you were.  Maybe we can
>>      simplify.
>>    - When you've finished the old one, you want to restore
>>      context to before the old idea.  This is probably
>>      impossible.  The stack is blown.
>>  4) Other issues:
>>    - If you forget to finalize, you lose data.
>>    - It is easy to reflexively call remember from remember,
>>      making you surprised that the old idea disappeared.
>>    - You might forget that you had the old idea.
>>      Especially if you are having short-term memory issues
>>      or are distracted.
>>
>>  5) Here is my idea: discard the concept of remember
>>    buffers entirely.
>>    - Create the entry at the target location when you call
>>      org-remember.
>>    - Employ a virtual buffer to narrow to the created
>>      entry.
>>
>>  6) Some benefits:
>>    1) Alan can remember, then remember again, then
>>       remember a third time without having to save
>>       remember buffers or name them (which he would need).
>>    2) Your idea is where it should be.  If you want
>>       context, you simply remove the narrowing.
>>    3) org has access to the target buffer's buffer-local
>>       variables, org variables, encoding and multilingual
>>       settings of the target, etc.
>>    4) Auto-save saves to a place where Emacs will pick it
>>       up again if Emacs crashes.
>>    5) A backup directory is no longer necessary to restore
>>       data from a killed (remember) buffer.
>>    6) Finalizing is no longer a matter of losing your data
>>       if you forget.  It merely pops windows.
>>
>>  7) If you still want the concept of "I am not done
>>    remembering this remember," add a tag (:REMEMBERING:)
>>    at creation time and have org-remember-finalize remove
>>    that tag.  To see in-progress remembers, call the
>>    agenda on that tag.
>>
>>  8) This eases yak shaving.
>>    - http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/Y/yak-shaving.html
>>    - This is a simple way to keep track of what you were
>>      doing when you remember from remember.
>>    - I recommend making org-remember-finalize use a
>>      /stack/, so that successive invocations recreate the
>>      previous window/buffer context until they get to the
>>      original context.
>>    - I think that we intuitively work in stacks.  This
>>      lets us avoid overloading our own memory.
>>    - If Emacs crashes, the worst thing that will happen is
>>      that you end up with a bunch of :REMEMBERING: tasks
>>      around your org files.  Not lost data.
>>
>> To summarize, the current remember naturally leads to the
>> need for increasing workarounds, and therefore requests for
>> features, which leads to more complexity.  By leveraging the
>> power of the org hierarchy, we can simplify, and get yak
>> shaving support as a nice surprise benefit.
>>
>> Let me know what you think.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 02:37, Carsten Dominik
>> <address@hidden> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Allen,
>>>
>>> saving remember buffers is hackish and complex as it is, so I am not
>>> going
>>> to add this option.
>>>
>>> I think the workflow has to be this:
>>>
>>> Create a remember buffer and more-or-less immediately file it.
>>>
>>> If you need to work on the content for a longer time, work on it at the
>>> target location:  Simply exit remember with C-u C-c C-c.  The buffer will
>>> be
>>> filed and the target location will be visited immediately.  So now you
>>> can
>>> work there as long as you want, and start another remember process when
>>> you
>>> need one.
>>>
>>> HTH
>>>
>>> - Carsten
>>>
>>> On Sep 9, 2009, at 10:17 PM, Alan E. Davis wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've looked briefly into the org-remember.el.  A hook exists:
>>>> remember-mode-hook.  Im not sure it can be successfully applied to the
>>>> case
>>>> I envision.
>>>>
>>>> THere are tradeoffs to immediately saving a remember buffer to a file,
>>>> and
>>>> editing a note in the remember buffer, then saving with
>>>>  remember-finalize.
>>>>  I don't remember what they are, as they led me away from immediately
>>>> saving
>>>> quite a while ago. I was strongly encouraged by the establishment of a
>>>> procedure to automatically save to a directory, any remember buffer that
>>>> was
>>>> not finallized.  I had some issues with it, including how clunky it was
>>>> to
>>>> recover, and it was broken at some point, when I was too busy to fix it.
>>>>
>>>> One problem with editing in the Remember buffer, then saving later, is
>>>> forgetting where I am.  I can rely on several remember templates, and
>>>> too
>>>> often have lost the remember buffer's contents, when I ran remember
>>>> again.
>>>>
>>>> What I propose is the make it possible---optionally---to invoke a hook
>>>> to
>>>> save existing remember buffers when C-c C-r (X) is used to file a
>>>> remember
>>>> note while in the remember buffer already.
>>>>
>>>> I found a test "bufferp".  It does not seem to recognize the buffer name
>>>> "Remember", nor "*Remember*".
>>>>
>>>> Is it possible to do this, or is remember going to defeat this?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alan Davis
>>>>
>>>> You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world,  but
>>>> when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the
>>>> bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing---that's what
>>>> counts.
>>>>
>>>>  ----Richard Feynman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Alan E. Davis <address@hidden> wrote:
>>>> Is there a hook to save the remember buffer when I type C-c C-r when I'm
>>>> in an unsaved remember buffer?  That would be almost as good, perhaps
>>>> better, than saving the remember buffer to a special file or directory.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>> You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world,  but
>>>> when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the
>>>> bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing---that's what
>>>> counts.
>>>>
>>>>  ----Richard Feynman
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Myalgic encephalomyelitis causes death (Jason et al. 2006)
>> and severe suffering.  Conflicts of interest are destroying
>> research.  What people "know" is wrong.  Silence = death.
>> http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/What_Is_ME_What_Is_CFS.htm
>
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