Re: psgml - support for XML namespaces and schemas?

[Galen Boyer]

On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, darren@dzr-web.com wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Nov 2002 01:41:09 +0000, Galen Boyer wrote:
> 
>> It uses PSGML mode for the structured editing but then it has built
>> in parsing of the dtd so that you get context sensitive tag creation
>> through menus.  I find this quite helpful.
> 
> I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that it is PSGML which is
> providing that functionality. PSGML on its own has the capability to
> parse a DTD and then offer context sensitive menus for inserting
> elements and attributes (i.e. the contents of the menus only reflect
> what would be valid at that point in the document).

Hm...  It looks like you are correct.  His package has a psgml mode
installed stock, and his code either finds a current one or uses the one
he has in his directory structure.  After reading some of the PSGML
info, this seems to be where the context-sensitive menus are coming
from.  (I will have to disable the XAE and use PSGML stand-alone for
awhile to understand it even more.

His stuff is the applying the stylesheets and transforming and sending
to the browser.  He has some java written which gets called as well.

>> It supports the docbook right out of the box, but any other available
>> dtd that you reference can be the dtd for that document and that dtd
>> will get parsed and context sensitive menus created for that
>> document. I like it mostly cause it has the built-in xslt processor
>> and a menu item,
>> 
>>    XAE --> View Document --> In Html Browser
> 
> The thing is that I am either working directly with XHTML anyway, or
> writing my own XSL transformations which I then use via PHP. (I'm a
> web developer working mostly with the XML family, PHP, Javascript and
> CSS.) Things which are very cool if you are primarily a Docbook writer
> are not necessarily that useful for me.

I'm using the XAE to author documentation for the company I just started
with.  I don't get nearly as deep into dealing with tagged files as you
would. 

>> Not sure how to soften those frustrations.  If your java environment
>> isn't correct, the XAE isn't going to correct it.  But, you could ask
>> the XAE list on how to correct it.  You might get an answer.
> 
> And also that was a while ago and I'm now using a much more up-to-date
> Linux and so it's entirely possible that my Java problems have gone
> away.
> 
>>> Well schemas and namespace are certainly a core part of XML's
>>> direction, and I don't see how any full-featured XML editing
>>> environment can not support them, but at the same time to the best
>>> of my understanding XAE just uses PSGML, and Lennart and others have
>>> implied that adding support for them would involve a very major
>>> re-write.
>> 
>> I think the context sensitive menu creation by parsing the referenced
>> DTD is what you mean by supporting?
> 
> Yes. For the kind of stuff I'm working on, either for current clients,
> or as future prodiucts to sell to clients, hybrid XML documents are
> becoming the norm. By that I mean documents which contain markup from
> more than one XML application; such documents depend on namespaces for
> validation and DTDs don't understand namespaces so XML schemas *have*
> to be used instead. Ideally, ones editing environment should also
> understand that documents can be hybrid and instead of looking to the
> DTD for populating menus for the insertion of elements or attributes
> they need to be able to understand namespaces.

I see.  I don't know how the XAE deals with namespaces, but it probably
won't matter, because PSGML is what would need to deal with namespaces
and it looks like it won't be.

>> The last thing that makes the XAE attractive to me, is that Paul's
>> JDE is a really nice package.  I see the XAE having even a much
>> fuller environment as Paul turns his concentrations to it.  It is
>> extremely useful already.  I'd like to be a user and help him by
>> offering my perspective as a user.  So, I guess I'm saying that I
>> trust that the package will remain in active development for quite
>> some time, and seeing the power of the JDE makes me wonder what the
>> XAE will look like in the future.
> 
> Well on top of beng rubbish at lisp, I'm pretty rubbish at Java!
> (Please don't let there be anyone I work for reading this!) But I've
> seen the JDE and it is truly impressive. You are convincing me to
> investigate the XAE further, but I think the bottom line is that I
> need an XML editing environment that groks namespaces and schemas, and
> at the moment XAE looks like it is very much aimed at the Docbook
> writer. 

Out of the box is docbook.  I think Paul actually did it a disservice
because one might gleam that is the only thing it will do.

> PSGML is the nearest thing I've found, but maybe trying to make PSGML
> understand namespaces and schemas is too big a poject, in which case
> we need another package altogether. And that thought makes me feel a
> little glum ...

I don't have this problem but I feel for you.  Having to leave Emacs to
edit things makes me glum when I have to do it as well.

> Best, Darren
> 
> P.S. This was written very late at night after much wine, so if I'm
> not making sense I apologise.

I'm a beer drinker myself.  Wine makes my head hurt.
-- 
Galen deForest Boyer
Sweet dreams and flying machines in pieces on the ground.