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Re: save-excursion doesn't always work


From: Stefan Monnier <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: save-excursion doesn't always work
Date: 16 Dec 2002 11:02:13 -0500
User-agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50

>>>>> "David" == David Kastrup <David.Kastrup@t-online.de> writes:
> You can't, for the above reason.  AUCTeX's filling modes would have to
> be rewritten so that instead of deleting all spaces and reinserting
> one space, AUCTeX would delete all spaces except one.
> I think Emacs' default filling by now does something like that.

It might do a few things slightly differently, but it will modify the
buffer anyway, even if the end result is exactly the same as the
starting point (e.g. it will first turn all \n into spaces and then
turn them back into \n).


        Stefan
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Mon Dec 16 11:10:22 2002
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>>>>> "Max" == Max Spring <mspring@employees.org> writes:
> I have my own fixed-width fonts, installed in
> /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/misc.  They work fine in XTerm, etc.
> When I try to bring up one of these fonts with 'set-default-font', a
> scalable font is used instead of my own.  On the other hand, a
> 'set-default-font 10x20' works as expected.
> It used to work with previous versions of Emacs.
> What am I missing?

I don't know what you're missing, but I know your message is
missing details.


        Stefan
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To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: save-excursion doesn't always work
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"Stefan Monnier <foo@acm.com>" <monnier+gnu.emacs.help/news/@flint.cs.yale.edu> 
writes:

> >>>>> "David" == David Kastrup <David.Kastrup@t-online.de> writes:
> > You can't, for the above reason.  AUCTeX's filling modes would have to
> > be rewritten so that instead of deleting all spaces and reinserting
> > one space, AUCTeX would delete all spaces except one.
> > I think Emacs' default filling by now does something like that.
> 
> It might do a few things slightly differently, but it will modify the
> buffer anyway, even if the end result is exactly the same as the
> starting point (e.g. it will first turn all \n into spaces and then
> turn them back into \n).

We are not talking about modification of the buffer, but about marks
being moved around in seemingly random manner.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
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>> It might do a few things slightly differently, but it will modify the
>> buffer anyway, even if the end result is exactly the same as the
>> starting point (e.g. it will first turn all \n into spaces and then
>> turn them back into \n).
> We are not talking about modification of the buffer, but about marks
> being moved around in seemingly random manner.

Unless they're explicitly moved, marks only move in response to
buffer modifications.  Maybe the default filling function works
better than AUCTeX in this regard (I don't know) but even if it
does, it doesn't work 100% as the user wants it to.


        Stefan
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Mon Dec 16 12:10:14 2002
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From: simon@eurecom.fr (Carine)
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Hello,

I'm using emacs 20.4.1 under Solaris 2.8 and I've got some accent
problems : it use to work when I just typed "e'" for example to make
an "é" but it doesn't work anymore.
And if I force it using M-x iso-accents-mode, under Latex, it works
except that the compiler doesn't interpret them (no error but no
output either).
But when I start emacs, I've got the following error : 
Error in init file: File error: "Cannot open load file", "iso-syntax".

Anybody could help me ?

Thanks,
Carine.
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>>>>> "Kai" == Kai Großjohann <kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de> writes:

    Kai> We started in an environment where /usr/local was a directory
    Kai> which was managed by somebody else (the departmental
    Kai> computing center, on our SunOS 4.x workstations).  We used
    Kai> /usr/local/ls6 at that time, but felt the directory name was
    Kai> too long.  Later on, the departmental computing center
    Kai> changed to /app/unido-inf/sun4_56 (Solaris 2.6, no surprise),
    Kai> and so we used /app/unido-i06/sun4_56 which wasn't really any
    Kai> shorter either.

If you're on the command line:

        $ x=/app/unido-i06/sun4_56

and after that, you can:

        $ ls $x
        $ find $x -perm +0111
etc.


    Kai> Then, when we moved to GNU/Linux, we instinctively stayed
    Kai> away from all these directories I think and looked for
    Kai> something else.  I had seen /usr/sww (software warehouse) in
    Kai> some document on the internet and I liked that, so maybe
    Kai> that's why /usr/sw came about.

Users should not need to use  these pathnames so much.  Use aliases or
shell scripts.


    Kai> Why didn't we use /sw instead?  The reason is really silly:
    Kai> back on SunOS and Solaris, we used to mount /usr via NFS, so
    Kai> putting mount points under /usr was easier because we only
    Kai> had to create the directory on the NFS server.  But now with
    Kai> GNU/Linux, we don't distribute /usr via NFS...

Why not?  NFS-shared volumes are easier to manage if you have a large
network.  This is esp. true with softwares that you install from
source or tarballs, not package files.



-- 
Lee Sau Dan                     李守敦(Big5)                    
~{@nJX6X~}(HZ) 

E-mail: danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
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>>>>> "Ajanta" == Ajanta  <ajanta@no.spam> writes:

    Ajanta> I wasn't aware of this and will have to look into
    Ajanta> it. However, unless a program's creators cooperate, I
    Ajanta> can't visualize how stow would prevent a program from
    Ajanta> installing files all over the place leaving you with no
    Ajanta> way to uninstall?

Why in  the first place  would the program  NEED to install  files all
over the place?

Unix  is  well  designed.  Most  (if  not  all)  GNU programs  can  be
configured   to   be   installed   anywhere  (usually   defaulted   to
/usr/local/foobar) and  run off there  directly.  There is no  need to
install files every here and  there.  That another popular inferior OS
does it doesn't mean Unix has to use the same approach.

To uninstall  the application,  simply "rm -rf  /usr/local/foobar" and
you're done!


You may have PATH or paths  to libraries in mind.  Unix has an elegant
tool: symbolic  links.  That other  popular inferior OS tried  to copy
this feature, but  didn't do it properly.  Short-cuts  simply a broken
way  of implementing  symlinks.  With  symlinks,  we place  a link  in
/usr/bin   or  /usr/local/bin   to   point  to   the  executables   in
/usr/local/foobar.  Similarly  for libraries.  After  uninstalling the
program, these  symlinks would become dangling and  hence unusable.  A
simple "find / -lname  "/usr/local/foobar/*" |xargs rm -f" would clean
them.


Anyway, nowadays,  people almost always use package  managers, such as
RPM in RedHat  and SuSE.  These are software systems  to keep track of
installed  files.  They  provide an  easy way  to  uninstall packages,
keeping an eye on the package dependencies.



    Ajanta> A practical problem is that except perhaps to an insider
    Ajanta> most names are unintuitive. If a file is named emacs-foo
    Ajanta> or foo.el you can guess what it is but a name like
    Ajanta> zuplibfoo (this is hypothetical, but most unix names have
    Ajanta> similar transparency) doesn't tell you which of the
    Ajanta> hundreds of packages it might belong to. So you can't even
    Ajanta> try to uninstall everything manually.

That explains why the issue you  raised out is a non-problem for Unix.
Unix  has been  supporting  long file  names  for a  long time.   Unix
programmers tend to use more verbose and descriptive filenames, rather
than  thinks like  PROGRA~1.   So, we  normally  don't such  problems.
Moreover, as  mentioned above, we tend  to put files of  each app into
its own  directory and then  install symlinks in /usr/bin,  instead of
sprinkling files here and there.


-- 
Lee Sau Dan                     §õ¦u´°(Big5)                    ~{@nJX6X~}(HZ) 

E-mail: danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
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>>>>> "Anil" == Anil  <anil@null.invalid> writes:

    Anil> Since unix routinely keeps a system-wide log on every file,

Since when does Unices do that?  Can  you tell me the name of this log
file?


    Anil> Let us say a slightly enhanced version of "ls" could tell
    Anil> you not only that a file is owned by root, wheel, etc., but
    Anil> also "belongs" to the System or a user or a package like TeX
    Anil> or Emacs-29.9, and maybe even its type within that package
    Anil> (src, doc, bin...). This requires one or two more file
    Anil> attributes, but then you could check on an individual file
    Anil> with "ls" or list all files belonging to a package with
    Anil> "find".

'man rpm', if you're on a RedHat or SuSE system.


    Anil> I think unix was conceptualized for small systems and
    Anil> programs, where a user might know every file, where it came
    Anil> from, what it does. 

Wrong.  Unix  has been designed  to be a  multi-concurrent-user system
since  3 decades  ago.   Unix  systems used  to  be time-shared  among
hundreds (in some cases thousands) of concurrent users.  Normally, the
end users only  know about a few subtree of  the whole directory tree,
and that's enough for his work.


    Anil> Either you wrote it yourself or copied it from a
    Anil> friend. Those times are gone.  

They've gone long ago.


    Anil> We have hundreds of thousands of files,

Unix passed this point decades ago.


    Anil> know nothing about them, and routinely install packages that
    Anil> bring thousands of files. The culture and the tools have not
    Anil> evolved to deal with this reality and perhaps need to.

That why we hav package management tools, like RPM on RedHat and SuSE.


    Anil> Shouldn't you be able to know just what a particular file
    Anil> named "dtabttf" doing on your system? 

Unix programmers would have used a more descriptive filenames.


    Anil> Similarly, while I am glad to know a files's relationship to
    Anil> "wheel", it would also be useful to know it belongs to emacs
    Anil> or TeX.

rpm -qf /etc/ntpd.conf



-- 
Lee Sau Dan                     §õ¦u´°(Big5)                    ~{@nJX6X~}(HZ) 

E-mail: danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Mon Dec 16 12:50:29 2002
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"Stefan Monnier <foo@acm.com>" <monnier+gnu.emacs.help/news/@flint.cs.yale.edu> 
writes:

> >> It might do a few things slightly differently, but it will modify the
> >> buffer anyway, even if the end result is exactly the same as the
> >> starting point (e.g. it will first turn all \n into spaces and then
> >> turn them back into \n).
> > We are not talking about modification of the buffer, but about marks
> > being moved around in seemingly random manner.
> 
> Unless they're explicitly moved, marks only move in response to
> buffer modifications.

Yes.  But if you do modifications that end up doing nothing, the
marks may move or not.  The former is more of a nuisance than the
latter.

> Maybe the default filling function works better than AUCTeX in this
> regard (I don't know) but even if it does, it doesn't work 100% as
> the user wants it to.

Come off it.  Nobody uses M-q as a substitute for forward-paragraph on
filled text.  It is a text-changing command.  I don't think people
will complain much if it changes text.  They will complain if regions
and marks end up on the wrong side of (maybe adjusted) white space,
though.  _Regardless_ of whether there were indeed formatting changes
or not.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
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>>>>> "David" == David Kastrup <David.Kastrup@t-online.de> writes:
> Come off it.  Nobody uses M-q as a substitute for forward-paragraph on
> filled text.  It is a text-changing command.  I don't think people
> will complain much if it changes text.  They will complain if regions
> and marks end up on the wrong side of (maybe adjusted) white space,
> though.  _Regardless_ of whether there were indeed formatting changes
> or not.

I have no clue what makes you think I disagree with you.
I though I made it pretty clear that my comment was only an answer
to your implicit question about whether Emacs' default filling code
had solved that problem.


        Stefan
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"Stefan Monnier <foo@acm.com>" <monnier+gnu.emacs.help/news/@flint.cs.yale.edu> 
writes:

> >>>>> "David" == David Kastrup <David.Kastrup@t-online.de> writes:
> > Come off it.  Nobody uses M-q as a substitute for forward-paragraph on
> > filled text.  It is a text-changing command.  I don't think people
> > will complain much if it changes text.  They will complain if regions
> > and marks end up on the wrong side of (maybe adjusted) white space,
> > though.  _Regardless_ of whether there were indeed formatting changes
> > or not.
> 
> I have no clue what makes you think I disagree with you.
> I though I made it pretty clear that my comment was only an answer
> to your implicit question about whether Emacs' default filling code
> had solved that problem.

Interesting.  Since _I_ said that Emacs' filling mode worked
differently (and more cautious) with regard to this aspect than
AUCTeX's, and since you contributed no information whatsoever about
Emacs' fill-mode behavior with regard to original poster's question
about AUCTeX's fill-mode and my explanation, I find it an interesting
twist that you now claim _I_ asked an implicit question which _you_
claim to have answered.

Well, suit yourself.  In that case, thank you for your answer
(whatever it may have been) to my implicit question (whatever that may
have been).

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
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simon@eurecom.fr (Carine) writes:

> I'm using emacs 20.4.1 under Solaris 2.8 and I've got some accent
> problems : it use to work when I just typed "e'" for example to make
> an "é" but it doesn't work anymore.
> And if I force it using M-x iso-accents-mode, under Latex, it works
> except that the compiler doesn't interpret them (no error but no
> output either).
> But when I start emacs, I've got the following error : 
> Error in init file: File error: "Cannot open load file", "iso-syntax".

Did you use Emacs 19 before?

I suggest to remove everything about iso-syntax from your init file,
and instead do C-\ then select the latin-1-postfix input method.

If C-\ emits an error message, post again.

-- 
~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn    (Frank Nobis)
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Lee Sau Dan <danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> writes:

> Users should not need to use  these pathnames so much.  Use aliases or
> shell scripts.

Actually, with the previous system I used to do 

    module add i06/edit/emacs/20.7

and after that I could type "emacs" to invoke that version of Emacs.
Quite nifty, actually.

These days we cheat by having /usr/sw/emacs/20.7/.bashenv which people
source to achieve the same effect.  But this doesn't give us the
effect of doing "module rm i06/edit/emacs/20.7"...

-- 
~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn    (Frank Nobis)
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Lee Sau Dan <danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:
 
>     Anil> Since unix routinely keeps a system-wide log on every file,
> 
> Since when does Unices do that?  Can  you tell me the name of this log
> file?

When I run a command like "ls -l file" I can get a lot of information
about a file's type, size, ownership, date created/modified. Whether
that qualifies as a "log" to somebody or not is a rather dull semantic
issue. The system does store and update information on files.
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Mon Dec 16 16:10:15 2002
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>>>>> "Ajanta" == Ajanta  <ajanta@no.spam> writes:
> When I run a command like "ls -l file" I can get a lot of information
> about a file's type, size, ownership, date created/modified.  Whether
> that qualifies as a "log" to somebody or not is a rather dull semantic
> issue.  The system does store and update information on files.

These kinds of info are more akin to `state'.  One major difference between
`state' and `log' is that a `log' is `append only'.  The info you describe
is always kept uptodate but you can't know what it was before the last
modification, so it's very clearly not a `log'.

Maybe it's dull, but it's not subtle.  If you don't know what word to use,
just use "info" or "thing" so you won't mislead readers.


        Stefan
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Mon Dec 16 16:10:16 2002
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Hi
I use KDE and therefore the keybinding M-<TAB> is already used for
switching between windows. Unfortunately there are several emacs modes
which try to use M-<TAB> for completion (f.e. lisp-mode, AUCTeX, ...).
However, the KDE setting seems to be "stronger" than the emacs setting
and hence I can only switch between windows with M-<TAB>. 

Is it possible to tell emacs that whenever I type a certain
keybinding, f.e. C-x M-<TAB> or so, emacs behaves as if I typed
M-<TAB> ? I.e. I don't want to change the M-<TAB> keybinding for every
single mode, I just want to have a certain global keybinding which
replaces M-<TAB> globally. Is this possible ?

Thanks in advance !
Marcel
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marcel-sl@gmx.de (Marcel Schmittfull) writes:

> Hi
> I use KDE and therefore the keybinding M-<TAB> is already used for
> switching between windows. Unfortunately there are several emacs modes
> which try to use M-<TAB> for completion (f.e. lisp-mode, AUCTeX, ...).
> However, the KDE setting seems to be "stronger" than the emacs setting
> and hence I can only switch between windows with M-<TAB>. 
> 
> Is it possible to tell emacs that whenever I type a certain
> keybinding, f.e. C-x M-<TAB> or so, emacs behaves as if I typed
> M-<TAB> ? I.e. I don't want to change the M-<TAB> keybinding for every
> single mode, I just want to have a certain global keybinding which
> replaces M-<TAB> globally. Is this possible ?

Why don't you just type <ESC> <TAB> ?

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Mon Dec 16 16:35:10 2002
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>>>>> "Marcel" == Marcel Schmittfull <marcel-sl@gmx.de> writes:
Marcel> Hi
Marcel> I use KDE and therefore the keybinding M-<TAB> is already used for
Marcel> switching between windows. 

Hmm.  To me M-Tab is "already" used by Emacs rather than the other way
around, but then I prefer ratpoison to KDE anyway...  The keybindings
for ratpoison are more Emacs friendly.  ratpoison is not ideal if you
open any close many tiny windows, but if you are like me and have a
small number of "fullscreen" windows, it is quite nice.

http://ratpoison.sourceforge.net/

Marcel>Unfortunately there are several emacs modes
Marcel> which try to use M-<TAB> for completion (f.e. lisp-mode, AUCTeX, ...).
Marcel> However, the KDE setting seems to be "stronger" than the emacs setting
Marcel> and hence I can only switch between windows with M-<TAB>. 

Marcel> Is it possible to tell emacs that whenever I type a certain
Marcel> keybinding, f.e. C-x M-<TAB> or so, emacs behaves as if I typed
Marcel> M-<TAB> ? 

Yes, by using key maps.

Marcel>I.e. I don't want to change the M-<TAB> keybinding for every
Marcel> single mode, I just want to have a certain global keybinding which
Marcel> replaces M-<TAB> globally. Is this possible ?

OK, I am not exactly clear about what you want.  Do you want a global
keybinding for all modes, or a keybinding for specific modes? (Maybe
my nomenclature is imperfect here.)

As I recall, to use a key map for a specific mode, you simply define a
mode map, then make the mode map active when you start that mode.

Here is some information from the info page regarding Local
Keymaps. (See keys in the Emacs info documentation.)

"
   For example, the command `texinfo-mode' to select Texinfo mode runs
the hook `texinfo-mode-hook'.  Here's how you can use the hook to add
local bindings (not very useful, we admit) for `C-c n' and `C-c p' in
Texinfo mode:

     (add-hook 'texinfo-mode-hook
               '(lambda ()
                  (define-key texinfo-mode-map "\C-cp"
                              'backward-paragraph)
                  (define-key texinfo-mode-map "\C-cn"
                              'forward-paragraph)))

"
-- 
-MM
I rarely read email from this address          /"\
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>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Mon Dec 16 16:40:17 2002
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David Kastrup <David.Kastrup@t-online.de> wrote:

>marcel-sl@gmx.de (Marcel Schmittfull) writes:
>
>> Hi
>> I use KDE and therefore the keybinding M-<TAB> is already used for
>> switching between windows. Unfortunately there are several emacs modes
>> which try to use M-<TAB> for completion (f.e. lisp-mode, AUCTeX, ...).
>> However, the KDE setting seems to be "stronger" than the emacs setting
>> and hence I can only switch between windows with M-<TAB>. 
>> 
>> Is it possible to tell emacs that whenever I type a certain
>> keybinding, f.e. C-x M-<TAB> or so, emacs behaves as if I typed
>> M-<TAB> ? I.e. I don't want to change the M-<TAB> keybinding for every
>> single mode, I just want to have a certain global keybinding which
>> replaces M-<TAB> globally. Is this possible ?
>
>Why don't you just type <ESC> <TAB> ?
>
>-- 
>David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Yes ok, this works. But for me it's very awkward to type <ESC><TAB>
since I've to leave the ground position of my left hand on the
keyboard (on an usual German keyboard; probably that's quite different
from English ones). Since I'm going to use completion _very_ often, I
would be very happy about an easier keybinding...

TIA
Marcel
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Mon Dec 16 16:45:20 2002
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Mark Mynsted <mmynsted_news@gbronline.com> wrote:

>>>>>> "Marcel" == Marcel Schmittfull <marcel-sl@gmx.de> writes:
>Marcel> Hi
>Marcel> I use KDE and therefore the keybinding M-<TAB> is already used for
>Marcel> switching between windows. 
>
>Hmm.  To me M-Tab is "already" used by Emacs rather than the other way
>around, but then I prefer ratpoison to KDE anyway...  The keybindings
>for ratpoison are more Emacs friendly.  ratpoison is not ideal if you
>open any close many tiny windows, but if you are like me and have a
>small number of "fullscreen" windows, it is quite nice.
>
>http://ratpoison.sourceforge.net/

I'm quite happy with KDE and don't want to change it...

>
>Marcel>Unfortunately there are several emacs modes
>Marcel> which try to use M-<TAB> for completion (f.e. lisp-mode, AUCTeX, ...).
>Marcel> However, the KDE setting seems to be "stronger" than the emacs setting
>Marcel> and hence I can only switch between windows with M-<TAB>. 
>
>Marcel> Is it possible to tell emacs that whenever I type a certain
>Marcel> keybinding, f.e. C-x M-<TAB> or so, emacs behaves as if I typed
>Marcel> M-<TAB> ? 
>
>Yes, by using key maps.
>
>Marcel>I.e. I don't want to change the M-<TAB> keybinding for every
>Marcel> single mode, I just want to have a certain global keybinding which
>Marcel> replaces M-<TAB> globally. Is this possible ?
>
>OK, I am not exactly clear about what you want.  Do you want a global
>keybinding for all modes, or a keybinding for specific modes? (Maybe
>my nomenclature is imperfect here.)
>
>As I recall, to use a key map for a specific mode, you simply define a
>mode map, then make the mode map active when you start that mode.
>
>Here is some information from the info page regarding Local
>Keymaps. (See keys in the Emacs info documentation.)
> [...]

OK, I'm going to define some keybindings in several keymaps now...

Thank you !
Marcel
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Mon Dec 16 17:00:08 2002
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On Mon, 16 Dec 2002, Marcel Schmittfull wrote:

> Yes ok, this works. But for me it's very awkward to type <ESC><TAB>
> since I've to leave the ground position of my left hand on the
> keyboard (on an usual German keyboard; probably that's quite different
> from English ones). Since I'm going to use completion _very_ often, I
> would be very happy about an easier keybinding...

Perhaps you could use a different key for Meta in emacs.  I use the
"Windows" key for windowmanager functions, and the "Alt" key as Meta in
emacs.  If KDE doesn't allow you to change key bindings, perhaps some
jiggery-pokery in .emacs and/or with xmodmap would allow the change in
emacs. (Assuming you have a such a key available).

-- 
Benjamin Lewis

On a paper submitted by a physicist colleague: 
"This isn't right.  This isn't even wrong."    -- Wolfgang Pauli
>From f_errante@libero.it Mon Dec 16 17:14:33 2002
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Subject: European Court of Human Rights - Errante v UK & Italy
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 The case of an elderly italian lady being held as an hostage by the
 Bedfordshire County Council in the UK will be heard by the ECHR 
 next January. 
 Margherita Caminita is the chief witnees in a major NHS privatization 
 scum that has costed the lives of hundreds of difficult elderly patients
 that have been killed through the abuse of sedatives and induced dehydration 
and
 starvation .
 
 All the details by visiting http://www.margherita-caminita.org
 or http://www.bedfordshire-holocaust.com

 Many tanks for your kind attention !

 Regards,
 
 Francesco errante 



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