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Re: (emacs+unix): How to have a file-name containing slashes, angle-bra
From: |
Xah |
Subject: |
Re: (emacs+unix): How to have a file-name containing slashes, angle-brackets, etc? |
Date: |
Wed, 27 Aug 2008 10:34:23 -0700 (PDT) |
User-agent: |
G2/1.0 |
Dear Nikolaj Schumacher,
you might be interested in this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking
For more about unix, you might be interested in my writings and
experiences about it.
★ The Unix Pestilence
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/freebooks.html
For some practical unix tips, see:
★ Unix Command Line Tools Tips
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/unix_tips.html
★ Mac OS X Command Line Tools Tips
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/macosx.html
★ Image Processing command line tips
http://xahlee.org/img/imagemagic.html
Also, i have a unix and emacs tip, here:
★ Emacs and Unix Tips
http://xahlee.org/emacs/emacs_unix.html
Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/
☄
On Aug 27, 7:05 am, Nikolaj Schumacher <m...@nschum.de> wrote:
> Xah<xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The issue in this thread we are currently debating is whether unix
> > support file names with non-alphanumeric chars and non-ascii chars.
>
> > I hope you agree the above is a good description of what we may be
> > debating. The issue is not, for example: “whether you can use char x
> > in a file name under a unix file system y”.
>
> Yes.
> Specifically we're also looking at your claim that unix is worse at this
> than Macs and Windows. And we're looking at design issues, not
> individual bugs.
>
> > So, what does “support” mean here? Support doesn't mean whether a file
> > system allow certain chars in question. Support means users of that
> > system can use these chars in file name easily, as easy as any
> > alphanumeric chars.
>
> Fair enough.
>
> > My argument is that, unix for much of its history up to perhaps mid
> > 2000s when linux desktop becomes popular, does not support it.
>
> If the desktops resolved the issue, so did a lot of other tools like mc
> or Emacs+dired. Are your doubts are based entirely on the command line
> environment? If so, the argument might as well end here, because I
> don't consider an OS broken if one of its tools doesn't provide
> convenient access to all its features. Especially since that same tool
> has the same issues in other environments.
>
> > One practical way to see why it doesn't support it is because people
> > simply don't use it.
>
> Sorry, but that's a flawed argument. If it wasn't supported, people
> wouldn't be using it. That doesn't make the converse true.
>
> > Why unix doesn't support these chars? There are many factors. For one
> > thing, unix shell tools is one bag of inconsistency that their quoting
> > mechanism differs.
>
> I don't understand what you are saying. Tools generally don't have
> quoting mechanisms, only the shell does. Most unix shells are
> compatible with the Bourne shell and use the same (straightforward)
> quoting mechanism. Most people don't use more than one shell.
>
> > Also, unix is typically used over telnet/ssh. Telnet doesn't not
> > support non-ascii chars thru much of its history... and
> > implementations vary wildly in quality... the bottom line is that if
> > your file names contain odd chars, you'll have problem using telnet to
> > work with them.
>
> That's an excellent example on why those HOWTOs suggest not to use those
> characters. However, telnet is an internet protocol. It is operating
> system independent. You can't single out unix, because it is
> "typically" used with it. This isn't an unix issue at all.
>
> Additionally, if implementations suck, that's a bug.
>
> > If you have experience in unix in say 1990s, you know as a fact that
> > unix just don't support “odd” chars. (odd here means basically anyting
> > other than [A-z0-9], “.”, “_”, “-”, “ ”)
>
> That's what we call a Totschlagargument here.
> You're essentially saying: If you'd been there, you'd know I'm right.
>
> I'm surprised you've added space to the list, though. Yesterday that was
> on the other side.
>
> > then, as someone else mention, there's non-printable ascii issues.
> > Unix allows a bell ring in file names! so thoughtful. Doing a file
> > listing wing “bing” and “bong”! and if you inadventaly have ohter
> > control chars in file name, expect your screen to be filled with
> > majibake.
>
> Yes, that's silly. It's generally silly to have a bell character these
> days. But that is (was) a shell problem. Emacs can handle those files,
> for instance.
>
> > this is quickly written... i hope it convinces you.
>
> Honestly, I'm not sure what you're trying to convince me of. That unix
> design is flawed in this regard, or that implementations in the 1990s
> mere broken. I don't see how unixes are handling characters differently
> than other operating systems, because you can't even give me one
> example. Additionally you stated that Macs don't have these problems.
> However Macs are unix (even UNIX) machines. So how would this alleged
> design flaw not affect them? Just because they are "typically" used
> from a GUI?
>
> > btw, who are you? what's your background anyway?
>
> Is that supposed to affect my credibility?
>
> regards,
> Nikolaj Schumacher
- Re: (emacs+unix): How to have a file-name containing slashes, angle-brackets, etc?, (continued)
- Re: (emacs+unix): How to have a file-name containing slashes, angle-brackets, etc?, Nikolaj Schumacher, 2008/08/25
- Message not available
- Re: (emacs+unix): How to have a file-name containing slashes, angle-brackets, etc?, Xah, 2008/08/26
- Re: (emacs+unix): How to have a file-name containing slashes, angle-brackets, etc?, Nikolaj Schumacher, 2008/08/26
- Message not available
- Re: (emacs+unix): How to have a file-name containing slashes, angle-brackets, etc?, Xah, 2008/08/26
- Re: (emacs+unix): How to have a file-name containing slashes, angle-brackets, etc?, Nikolaj Schumacher, 2008/08/26
- Message not available
- Re: (emacs+unix): How to have a file-name containing slashes, angle-brackets, etc?, Xah, 2008/08/26
- Re: (emacs+unix): How to have a file-name containing slashes, angle-brackets, etc?, Bernardo Bacic, 2008/08/27
- Re: (emacs+unix): How to have a file-name containing slashes, angle-brackets, etc?, Nikolaj Schumacher, 2008/08/27
- Message not available
- Re: (emacs+unix): How to have a file-name containing slashes, angle-brackets, etc?, Xah, 2008/08/27
- Message not available
- Re: (emacs+unix): How to have a file-name containing slashes, angle-brackets, etc?,
Xah <=
- Re: (emacs+unix): How to have a file-name containing slashes, angle-brackets, etc?, Cor Gest, 2008/08/27
- Re: (emacs+unix): How to have a file-name containing slashes, angle-brackets, etc?, Nikolaj Schumacher, 2008/08/28
- Message not available
- Re: (emacs+unix): How to have a file-name containing slashes, angle-brackets, etc?, Xah, 2008/08/28
- Re: (emacs+unix): How to have a file-name containing slashes, angle-brackets, etc?, Lennart Borgman (gmail), 2008/08/28
- Re: (emacs+unix): How to have a file-name containing slashes, angle-brackets, etc?, Nikolaj Schumacher, 2008/08/28
- Message not available
- Re: (emacs+unix): How to have a file-name containing slashes, angle-brackets, etc?, Xah, 2008/08/28