RE: emacs mode line suggestions

[Drew Adams]

> You seem to miss the point slightly. Many beginners do not, 
> for obvious reasons, frequent emacs development. And it is beginners I 
> was referring to.

I did not miss your point. Perhaps you missed mine. New users should be
encouraged to join emacs-devel if they are interested in how Emacs might be
improved. That is where they can give their views about it and hear from others
about it. That list was created precisely for that, among other things.

This, on the other hand, is primarily a list for help questions.

> Nearly all users tend to develop their own add ons and/or
> customisations. Looks at the far reaching Icicles for a good 
> example :-;

Yes, and so?
I said the same thing.

> It would be a pretty poor sample if the the only new users you could
> discuss things with were the ones willing and able to subscribe to emacs
> development.

No, emacs-devel was created as the place for such discussion. The Emacs wiki is
another such place. IMO, such discussion is not best on help-gnu-emacs, for new
users or old.

> Few users do.

That doesn't mean that that's not the appropriate place for such discussion. And
it doesn't make this list appropriate for it.

> And having read some of the sniping there one can readily see why :-;

I fully understand that, believe me. I have the scars to prove it. ;-)

Again, I'm afraid there is no getting around discussion at emacs-devel, if you
really want the discussion to change Emacs development. emacs-devel is like
sausage making and politics. If you want to clean it up, you have to enter the
room and get your hands in the mess.

> > Any and all users - new and old - who are interested in 
> > such discussion: Please subscribe to emacs-devel, whether you just
> > want to lurk or you want to contribute. That will help improve both
> > emacs-devel and Emacs. People, myself included, sometimes complain
> > that emacs-devel is not open enough or is too set in its ways.
> > The remedy for that is for more people to participate.
> 
> If you want to discuss hard core stuff then yes I would concur.

emacs-devel is not only for hard-core stuff. It is supposedly for all discussion
affecting Emacs development. If the currently discussed topics are too
hard-core, then bring some soft-core ones to the party. Nothing prevents you
from doing that.

The point is that discussion of Emacs development is a primary purpose of
emacs-devel. It is not a primary purpose of help-gnu-emacs, AFAIK.

> But gauging NEW users feeling about certain emacs defaults can hardly be
> done if there are no new users there.

So the remedy is to encourage new users to join emacs-devel. Bring the
discussion (this one, for example) there.

> And you are an optimist if you feel that new users will be
> subscribing to emacs development where it can be slightly
> frightening for the non clued in new user IMO.

There's no alternative. IMO. And not encouraging them to do so only reinforces
the situation that you decry of emacs-devel not being hospitable to new users.
That's like abandoning politics to the "grey-suited grafters".

You are living in fantasy land if you think that development or design
discussion on only help-gnu-emacs is likely to affect Emacs development or
design much. Sooner or later, a decision will be made only after a discussion of
the matter at emacs-devel. Might as well bring up the matter there earlier,
rather than later.

> While I realise you are not policing per se, I find it hard to agree
> with you that a discussion about some emacs basics here is a bad thing
> since the kind of people whose input would be most valuable are indeed
> here. Consider the "help" part of the group name as including helping
> people understand why certain things are as they are or even "help"ing
> someone come to a design suggestion on how to improve it.

It's not a bad thing (except if it begins to distract from the ability to get
and give help here, which is the list's purpose). It's not a bad thing to
discuss Emacs development anywhere, including the local cafe.

The point is that it is less effective, if your goal is to change Emacs. And
yes, in some cases it can get in the way of the Q&A messages here, which are on
topic.

Everyone's input is valuable, new users and old. Neither is "most valuable".
That new users gravitate to a help list is undeniable. They come here for help.
That is not a reason to divert the list to off-topic discussion.

It is on topic to poll users here, and Emacs developers do that from time to
time to reach a wider sample than emacs-devel.

I don't think it is particularly on topic, however, to delve into design or
development discussions here. But hey, you're free to do so. I offered my two
cents already; feel free to ignore it.