RE: emacs mode line suggestions

[Drew Adams]

> the bottom line really is "this is how it is" not "how it maybe
> should be if all groups were used properly". The development
> list/group does not feature lots of new users whose input IS
> important when discussing such issues.

It's not about proper use. It's about being effective to get what you want. To
change Emacs (the release), one needs to deal with <shudder> emacs-devel, like
it or not. That's the "this-is-how-it-is" reality.

> The help group does feature these users. These new users do not and 
> generally will not subscribe to the development list since they do
> not realise they are in fact contributing to "development" when
> expressing their confusion about certain emacs idiosyncrasies.

Too bad, for everyone.

But _you_ realize they are in fact contributing to development, so why don't you
suggest moving such a thread to where you now apparently agree it belongs?
Especially if that's the only thing keeping them away ("_since_ they do not
realize").

You seem to be arguing that since those other, new guys don't know any better,
don't know that such a discussion is in fact about Emacs development and
logically belongs in emacs-devel, the discussion should just be carried on here
instead.

I'm arguing that if they don't know any better then we should help by guiding
them to the fertile ground, the place where the discussion is most likely to
bear fruit. 

> Should new development be discussed in the devel group? Of course.

Then what's the argument? That's just what I'm saying. Let's encourage that to
happen, since you agree.

> Does that preclude certain things being discussed in the 
> context of help threads here in the help group? Certainly not.

Preclude? No. But will a discussion only here change Emacs? Not likely.

Is your aim to convince new users that you have a great idea or to change Emacs
to reflect your great idea? That's the question. Please think about it.

My point is not that you must not post such discussions here. It is that there
is not much point in doing so - _if_ your intention is to change Emacs.

"Philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point,
however, is to change it." ;-) 

I've qualified by adding that conditional, "if", several times now, with no
correction from you. And I've asked, if that is not the intention, then what is?
Again no response. I conclude that that is in fact the intention of having such
a discussion here: to change Emacs.

I think, in that case, that it is misguided. Those who will ultimately change
Emacs in the ways you want (or not) are in emacs-devel. "This is how it is."

To fulfill your goal, you will need to take your case to them sooner or later.
Bring as many newbies as you like - that can only help the discussion, not hurt
it, but bring the discussion to the place where the Emacs release is actually
changed. That ain't here, any way you look at it.

My aim is to help you bring such discussion in contact with the Emacs developers
and deciders - not to exclude it from here. If you want people here to be aware
of it, then a link here, even a periodic link, to a discussion at emacs-devel
could be appropriate.

I want to encourage you to add the discussion to emacs-devel; that's all. I
really don't care much whether it is also here, but I respect that you do. It's
not good to simply copy both lists, of course, but an occasional informative
link here could help newcomers tune in.

The question I think is, do you really want to change Emacs or not?