Re: tuplets

[Jay Hamilton]

I've 56 years old been in music both student or educator for 47 of them and 
live in the Northwestern part of the US and until this discussion had never 
heard the word tuplet.
Jay

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 12:04:01 -0700
From: Graham Percival <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: tuplets
To: Eyolf ?strem <address@hidden>,      address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Eyolf ��strem wrote:
> Does this mean that we should consider not using the word? Not that I
> have anything against Finale (hehe :-), but do we have to copy their
> strange nomenclature? The question is, I suppose:

I've never touched Finale, but I've heard the word "tuplet" many times 
before.  It's certainly widely used in North America.

Cheers,
- Graha


Yours-
Jay

Jay Hamilton
www.soundand.com
206-328-7694

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Subject: lilypond-user Digest, Vol 58, Issue 89
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 18:32:50 -0400

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re:tuplets (was: GDP for kids :) (Eyolf ?strem)
   2. Re:tuplets (Graham Percival)
   3. Collision of arpeggio with 8va; Collision of accidental with
      bar (Edde)
   4. Re:tuplets (was: GDP for kids :) (fi?? visu?lle)
   5. Re:GDP: welcome, helpers! (Graham Percival)
   6. Re:GDP: welcome, helpers! (Chris Sawer)
   7. Re:GDP: welcome, helpers! ( Trevor Ba?a )


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 18:22:37 +0200
From: Eyolf ?strem <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: tuplets (was: GDP for kids :)
To: address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

> 2007/9/21, Trevor Ba��a <address@hidden>:
> > Yeah, I may be spreading unsubstantiated rumours here, but the term
> > seems definitely to have shown up first in English (rather than FR or
> > DE) and I *think* it actually originated in an early version of the
> > Finale user manual (God help us). I've never been able to verify this
> > last bit, but, if true, it would at least explain why the word doesn't
> > seem to exist in any EN dictionaries yet.

Does this mean that we should consider not using the word? Not that I
have anything against Finale (hehe :-), but do we have to copy their
strange nomenclature? The question is, I suppose:

- is it a good term (perhaps it is; are there any alternatives for a
  cover-all term for -- eh, for tuplets...?)
- is the term so well-established in note-typesetting circles that it
  would be strange not to use it, even if the answer to the first
  question is "no"?

Personally, I thought it was a strange term when I first came across
it -- yes, in the Finale manual -- especially since 90% of all tuplets
are TRIplets, but on the other hand, once one gets used to it, it is a
handy term.

Just wondering.

Eyolf

-- 
It is commonly reported, my dear Georad, that there exists great natural
virtue in the melange experience.  Perhaps this is true.  There remain within
me, however, profound doubts that every use of melange always brings virtue.
Me seems that certain persons have corrupted the use of melange in defiance
of God.  In the words of the Ecumenon, they have disfigured the soul.
They skim the surface of melange and believe thereby to attain grace.:
They deride their fellows, do great harm to godliness, and they distort
the meaning of this abundant gift maliciously, surely a mutilation beyond
the power of man to restore.  To be truly at one with the virtue of the spice,
uncorrupted in all ways, full of goodly honor, a man must permit his deeds and
his words to agree.  When your actions describe a system of evil consequences,
you should be judged by those consequences and not by your explanations.
It is thus that we should judge Muad'Dib.

  -- The Pedant Heresy




------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 12:04:01 -0700
From: Graham Percival <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: tuplets
To: Eyolf ?strem <address@hidden>,      address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Eyolf ��strem wrote:
> Does this mean that we should consider not using the word? Not that I
> have anything against Finale (hehe :-), but do we have to copy their
> strange nomenclature? The question is, I suppose:

I've never touched Finale, but I've heard the word "tuplet" many times 
before.  It's certainly widely used in North America.

Cheers,
- Graham




------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 12:13:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Edde <address@hidden>
Subject: Collision of arpeggio with 8va; Collision of accidental with
        bar
To: address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Hello!

In the following snipplet I created a connected arpeggio in a piano staff
and transposed both staffs one octave up (8va). The 8va and the arpeggios
collides.
In the following bar the accidentel of the ees colliedes with the bar.

Has anyone any ideas?

Thanks

(windows XP)

\version "2.10.33"


pianorh = \relative c'{
  \clef treble \time 4/4 \key f \major

  c2 #(set-octavation 1)<g' c e>2\arpeggio #(set-octavation 0) |

  f1 }

pianolh = \relative c'{
  \clef bass \time 4/4 \key f \major
  c2 #(set-octavation 1)<g' c e>2\arpeggio #(set-octavation 0)|

  ees4 ees ees ees }

\score {

  <<
    \new PianoStaff = "piano" <<
      \set PianoStaff.connectArpeggios = ##t
      \new Staff \pianorh
      \new Staff \pianolh
    >>
  >>
  \layout { ragged-right = ##t }
}
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Collision-of-arpeggio-with-8va--Collision-of-accidental-with-bar-tf4508611.html#a12858097
Sent from the Gnu - Lilypond - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.





------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 21:19:19 +0200
From: fi?? visu?lle <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: tuplets (was: GDP for kids :)
To: lilypond-user Mailinglist <address@hidden>
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Am 2007-09-24 um 14:24 schrieb Valentin Villenave:

> In French, no generic term exist; when we translated the documentation
> we had to create a rather ugly mathematical word:
> since the terms we use are
> triolet ==> meaning triplet
> quartolet
> quintolet
> etc...
>
> We created the
> "n-olet"
> which is a neologism I haven't seen anywhere in French.

If we do the same in German, we get "n-Ole"/"Nole".
The half of that would be a Seminole. ;-)

Greetlings from Lake Constance
---
fi�� visu�lle
Henning Hraban Ramm
http://www.fiee.net
http://angerweit.tikon.ch/lieder/
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)






------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 12:44:07 -0700
From: Graham Percival <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: GDP: welcome, helpers!
To: Trevor Ba?a <address@hidden>
Cc: lilypond-user <address@hidden>, lily-devel
        <address@hidden>
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Trevor Ba��a wrote:
>> Something like this? These are the closing measures of the first
>> movement of the Ravel sonatine.

Other than the things you mentioned, looks great.  See it in action here:
http://opihi.cs.uvic.ca/~gperciva/lilypond/Documentation/index.html

One note: click on the image, and see the source.  All the headwords 
will have the same \paper{} section; you simply create great stuff in 
the "ly snippet" section.  This way you should be able to see exactly 
what the doc output will look like.

If you'd rather have the headwords with slightly different 
specifications (larger font, slightly changed line-widths), that's 
possible... but I'd like every headword to have the same specs.

Don't miss the #(set-global-staff-size)  -- that should be placed inside 
the cut-&-paste section.  I'll file a bug report about that.


One concern: is Ravel mutopia-worthy?  How long has he been dead?  I 
hate to ask, but... :(


>> 2. Is there a way to set slur attachment points to *end-of-stem*
>> rather than notehead? The two-note chordal slurs would look better
>> that way. If it's intensely manual I don't wanna mess with it; but if
>> there's a smart way to make that specification, then cool.

IIRC this feature was removed in 1.6 or so (because it wasn't a smart 
way :)  and was never re-implemented (in a smart way).

Cheers,
- Graham




------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 21:09:30 +0100
From: Chris Sawer <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: GDP: welcome, helpers!
To: Graham Percival <address@hidden>
Cc: Trevor Ba?a <address@hidden>,       lily-devel
        <address@hidden>, lilypond-user <address@hidden>
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Graham Percival wrote:
> One concern: is Ravel mutopia-worthy?  How long has he been dead?  I 
> hate to ask, but... :(

Wikipedia lists his date of death as 28 Dec 1937, so his music will go 
out of copyright in most of the world on 1 January 2008.

To be extra safe, you should stick to music first published before 1923 
to ensure that it is out of copyright in the USA. See the Wikipedia 
Public Domain page for more info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Domain

Regards,

Chris

-- 

Chris Sawer - address@hidden - Mutopia team leader
Free sheet music for all at:  http://www.MutopiaProject.org/




------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:32:45 -0500
From: " Trevor Ba?a " <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: GDP: welcome, helpers!
To: "Graham Percival" <address@hidden>
Cc: lilypond-user <address@hidden>, lily-devel
        <address@hidden>
Message-ID:
        <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 9/24/07, Graham Percival <address@hidden> wrote:
> Trevor Ba��a wrote:
> >> Something like this? These are the closing measures of the first
> >> movement of the Ravel sonatine.
>
> Other than the things you mentioned, looks great.  See it in action here:
> http://opihi.cs.uvic.ca/~gperciva/lilypond/Documentation/index.html

Oh wow. The exact image is at ...

  
http://opihi.cs.uvic.ca/~gperciva/lilypond/Documentation/user/lilypond/Pitches.html#Pitches

... and looks great to my eyes (minus the slur gripes I mentioned in
the previous mail).

Question: is the amount of the Ravel example what you're looking for?
I think you had said 8 staves total (either 8 *1 or else 4 * 2 or else
2 * 4 or else 1 * 8)? This is only half that amount, but looks right
to my eyes. What do you think?


> One note: click on the image, and see the source.  All the headwords
> will have the same \paper{} section; you simply create great stuff in
> the "ly snippet" section.  This way you should be able to see exactly
> what the doc output will look like.

Perfect. This is exactly what I was looking for.





> If you'd rather have the headwords with slightly different
> specifications (larger font, slightly changed line-widths), that's
> possible... but I'd like every headword to have the same specs.

Yes, agreed.



> Don't miss the #(set-global-staff-size)  -- that should be placed inside
> the cut-&-paste section.  I'll file a bug report about that.

OK.

Question: should the global-staff-size be the same for all headwords?
I'm leaning towards "yes" ... I'll see if I can make it happen.



> One concern: is Ravel mutopia-worthy?  How long has he been dead?  I
> hate to ask, but... :(

Ravel died in 1937 but the Sonatine was finished earlier, in 1905
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonatine_%28Ravel%29). Isn't copyright
something like 75 years max? If so the Sonatine should be public by
now, though it's possible that any of his various publishers along the
way may have taken out renewals or something.

Please somebody correct me, but my understanding of fair use is that a
snippet of absolutely anything, regardless of medium -- score,
soundfile, text, film, whatever -- is perfectly acceptable to use, so
long as you're not trying to make any money with it (which we're in
the bizarrely unique position of). So I would assume that a "snippet"
of any score -- even a bit of Grisey published only a couple of years
back -- should be completely acceptable; I seem to remember the upward
limit being something like no more than 10% of a work quoted, even if
in separate fragments.

At any rate, there are three separate copyright strategies (at least)
that we can take with the headwords:

1. Use only stuff that we're absolutely certain is public domain,
which in our case means tonal stuff from the common practice;

2. Use whatever we want, so long as we're respect fair use guidelines
in a professional way;

3. Write our own examples.


Copyright strategy #1 is certainly the safest and there is without
doubt an abundance of beautiful material in scores of the common
practice. But many of the most beautiful scoring achievements of all
live in later centuries.

Copyright strategy #2 should be fine. This is the point of fair use, after all.

Copyright strategy #3 is actually a possibility for our team -- we
have a community of composers available (and I'm not just guessing
here -- I've traded score with many new friends on the list, and I've
been quite astounded in some cases). So this might ultimately be the
most interesting strategy of all -- commission each chapter's headword
from a different composer on the list. I'll get the ball rolling by
hacking up an original headword for 1.2 "Rhythms", just as you had
suggested. If the example works (beautiful and characteristic of Lily,
both interesting and inviting) then maybe we can ask some of the other
composers on the list to contribute, too, or extend an open
invitation; I'd be happy to help guide the process and make
selections.



> >> 2. Is there a way to set slur attachment points to *end-of-stem*
> >> rather than notehead? The two-note chordal slurs would look better
> >> that way. If it's intensely manual I don't wanna mess with it; but if
> >> there's a smart way to make that specification, then cool.
>
> IIRC this feature was removed in 1.6 or so (because it wasn't a smart
> way :)  and was never re-implemented (in a smart way).

Hm, I thought I remembered as much, but couldn't be sure. OK, it's not
a requirement.

What *is* a requirement is getting rid of that hideous line-breaking
with the slurs at the beginning of line two.

Perhaps someone else on the list can help clean up the example and
answer some of my earlier questions about the Ravel fragment ... or
perhaps not since my posts to both user and devel were rejected do
violating our 64k message size limit ... which still, years on, makes
absolutely no sense to me.

If anyone else is following this thread and wants to look at the
proposed snippet for 1.1 "Pitches", please click on, again, ...

  
http://opihi.cs.uvic.ca/~gperciva/lilypond/Documentation/user/lilypond/Pitches.html#Pitches

... and click, as usual, on the image itself to reveal input.



-- 
Trevor Ba��a
address@hidden

------------------------------

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