Re: ugly bar line when changing line-count

[Gilberto Agostinho]

Hi Elize,

Thanks again for your reply. First of all, let me just make some things
clear: I am not a programmer by any means, I am just a musician. My
motivation to write to this mailing list is to help to improve LilyPond;
thus, when I see something that seems odd according to what I believe are
the notation standards, I feel that I should point out here. That said, here
are my thoughts on your message:


Eluze wrote
> there are more options to do this, eg.
> 
> \once \override Staff.StaffSymbol.layer = 33333 

I will experiment with these and other options. But as I wrote before, I was
recommending that LilyPond would behave like I proposed /automatically/. So
I am not really looking for some tweak or workaround here (I am not actually
writing any music right now that needs these things). I was simply pointing
out how I think bar lines are notated when a change of number of lines
happen. People are welcome to agree or disagree with me, as well as
implement or reject my ideas.


Eluze wrote
> there's no mess - you want a staff with an even number of staff lines
> against an odd number before - this must be dis-/mis-located.  

Yes, this is correct. However, this was never pointed out as a problem by
me.

Eluze wrote
> having the staff lines dislocated by half a staff doesn't make sense to me
> (how would you play or read this for a melodic instrument?) 

To me it does make sense that the lines are dislocated when changing from an
odd no of lines to an even no of lines, or vice-versa. And about using this
for a melodic instrument, I agree with you that this would be of no use, but
when using a mix of pitched and unpitched percussion, this kind of notation
might appear in the full score of an orchestral work if the composer decides
to notate one staff per percussion player (instead of per instrument), for
instance. Here is a silly small example of what I have already came across: 
percussion.ly
<http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/n152215/percussion.ly>  

<http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/n152215/percussion.png> 

Eluze wrote
> obviously LP draws the staff line from one bar to the next (which I
> consider reasonable) and when there's a time or key change this is
> displayed before the staff stops. 

Please have a look on the image below. The top time signatures are the
automatic ones generated via LP. The bottom ones are retouched images of
what I think it would look better. I don't know how LP works on this regard,
I am simply pointing out that those lines crossing over the time signature
are not part of any standard of notation.

<http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/n152215/timesig2.png> 


Eluze wrote
> not sure it's *my* example 

Well, I meant the code you attached. The last item/example/staff of the code
you attached.


Eluze wrote
> why should it not leave the accidental in its "natural" place which is
> determined by certain horizontal spacing rules (which are well documented
> in the docs, imo)? 

I am not arguing about changing the position of any accidentals! I am
arguing that the no. of staff lines should be changed before the accidental.

<http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/file/n152215/accidentals.png> 


Eluze wrote
> if you think there should be other rules for all this, would you like to
> try to gather them in a - maybe - simple (scheme-) function?! 

I can certainly try to create a function that deals with these issues
myself, but I don't see much reason for this. First of all, I am not very
familiar with LP's functions and it would take me a while to learn it.
Secondly, I don't see why they would be useful in this case. I am basically
arguing that LP should behave like this and that *out of the box*, due to
what are the standards of notation IMO. 

Thanks once again for your replies.
Take care,
Gilberto



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