RE: Re: Parallel Square Premusic

[have]

You're very wrong. I have considered all of those things. My Parallel Square format is perfectly vertically extensible. The examples already given show off the most important part of the premusic, but it is with little imagination that everything you mention is accounted for.

                         (begin crescendo end)
[]dy  pp--p---mp--mf--ff--<<--------------<<
[]tm  108 102 116
I'm not sure how the octave of a pitch is ambiguous?? Scientific pitch notation is pretty well defined...
Please explain what you mean by 'markup'?
I don't see any particularly compelling reason to demand inclusion of artifacts of sheet music such as the grouping of beams, when a rendering program could easily determine the most typical grouping. But the Parallel Squares format is extremely powerful and perfectly extensible, and all those things can still be accounted for if needed.

Unless you think we'll run out of square characters?

It is a new project and I want to discuss it with people before afterthoughts such as these are decided upon. The framework is solid, and like it or not, this will proceed to become the plaintext music format.


    --------- Original Message ---------
    Subject: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
    From: "Flaming Hakama by Elaine" <address@hidden>
    Date: 3/21/17 6:47 pm
    To: "Lilypond-User Mailing List" <address@hidden>


    My general observation on this "premusic" concept is that it is an attempt to abstract some aspects of musical content (namely, pitch name, rhythm and lyrics), and ignoring others (like dynamics, tempo, even the octave of the pitch is ambiguous in your "perfect" system, as well as tempo, markup, etc.), without any consideration of how to actually notate it.

    Even if this format were useful for someone to input or edit the incomplete musical information it models, in order to actually engrave a piece of sheet music, you would have to have another layer on top to contain all of that information:  grouping for beams, the orientation of slurs and articulations, barlines, how staves are grouped into staff groups, etc.


    I hope that what you take away from this discussion includes:

    o You have not fully considered what is required to define music even in an abstract way, so your design is not useful for people who are trying to process, manage or manipulate musical content.

    o You have not at all considered what information is required to define sheet music (which goes beyond the abstract musical representation), so your design is not useful for people who are trying to produce sheet music.

    o Your proposed file format--even assuming that we don't care about all the ways in which the problem it claims to solve is not even considered, let alone solved--is not convenient:  it is difficult to view, to read and to manage.


    Best of luck,

    David Elaine Alt
    415 . 341 .4954                                           "Confusion is highly underrated"
    address@hidden
    self-immolation.info
    skype: flaming_hakama
    Producer ~ Composer ~ Instrumentalist
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

No, yes, this is actually what some people are upset about, apparently. Somebody somewhere wrote music in pi-time, and somehow all the conceivable musical notations that can't very nicely deal with that are bad? Give me a break.

    --------- Original Message ---------
    Subject: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
    From: "Bernardo Barros" <address@hidden>
    Date: 3/21/17 2:27 pm
    To: address@hidden

    Why one calls them 'irrationals'? they are rational number ratios just
    as any ordinary notation, unless you're referring to a tuplet of π (pi)
    or log2 3...

    They look difficult because we put them in a special "difficult" place.
    Unlike Carnatic musicians, who just learn rationals and "irrationals"
    as two categories of the same things since the beginning. Stop that.

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Thanks for letting me know about ASCIIDoc. That's VERY analogous to what I'm trying to do - though mine is a much more complicated task. My solution, Parallel Squares, is obviously up to the challenge! It does not need to be the king of fast readability. It is sufficiently readable to become the king of encoding premusic in a computer.

But, I'm a little confused here... Isn't this the Lilypond chatroom? Doesn't Lilypond look like this:

\version "2.14.1"
\include "english.ly"

\score {
  \new Staff {
    \key d \major
    \numericTimeSignature
    \time 2/4
    <cs' d'' b''>16 <cs' d'' b''>8.
    %% Here: the tie on the D's looks funny
    %% Too tall? Left-hand endpoint is not aligned with the B tie?
    ~
    <cs' d'' b''>8 [ <b d'' a''> ]
  }
}


Because that looks to have a verbosity more like your LaTeX accusation than does this:

[]pi  --G4G4G4||e4
[]rh  --dadada||da

I dare say that for being a formatting-free conveyance of music, the closer of the two formats to the German plaintext string you prefer is my own!

My sir, you have just insulted your own format! Quite harder to peruse indeed.


Piano roll notations aren't plaintext, where plaintext would suffice. Therefore, they are fundamentally flawed. There is no competent plaintext music besides my own.




    --------- Original Message ---------
    Subject: Re: What can Premusic do that others can't?
    From: "David Kastrup" <address@hidden>
    Date: 3/21/17 1:22 pm
    To: address@hidden
    Cc: address@hidden

    <address@hidden> writes:

    > I think that I should append a disclaimer to my format: I don't
    > intend it to be more comfortably sight-read than sheet music is and
    > will be. I simply intend to create an analogue of .txt where there is
    > only .docx and .odt. It is perfectly legible for simple pieces, and
    > perhaps an environment like Frescobaldi could be configured to
    > real-time display Premusic code as its appropriate sheet music for
    > more complex pieces - that environment would make my format into a
    > very formidable one indeed.

    So you want it to be AsciiDoc for music. Tablatures are actually
    already done frequently in a somewhat similar manner and work reasonably
    well for guitar music that is not too complicated.

    For lots of music, the format's relation between visual and musical
    complexity is not good enough to convey musical sense fast enough. Even
    for guitar music, it clutters the field of vision much more with symbols
    than ASCII tablature does.

    Mathematicians don't converse in ASCII notation but graphical formulas,
    even if some of them are reasonably versed in looking at TeX notation.

    Something like

    Dies ist
    \begin{multline}
    \label{eq:51}
    f(t+\Delta t,x) = \beta\frac{d(x)}{d(x)+d(x-\Delta x)}
    f(t,x-\Delta x)\\
    + (1-2\beta + \beta \frac{d(x)}{d(x)+d(x+\Delta x)}
    + \beta\frac{d(x)}{d(x)+d(x-\Delta x)})\,f(t,x)\\
    + \beta\frac{d(x)}{d(x)+d(x+\Delta x)}\,f(t,x+\Delta x)
    \end{multline}
    Für die weitere Herleitung kürzen wir jetzt die Ableitung etwa von $d$
    nach der Ortskoordinate~$x$ mit $d'$ ab.

    is quite harder to peruse than

    Dies ist
    Für die weitere Herleitung kürzen wir jetzt die Ableitung etwa von nach der Ortskoordinate~ mit ab.

    Music is similar in that respect. AsciiDoc has a much simpler task
    since its principal substance is letters and it is used for structuring
    text. Nevertheless it has not become the bees' knees of documentation
    writing, it is just one semipopular way of doing things.

    There are numerous forms of piano roll notation that are a lot better
    candidates for playing material than your proposal. Maybe you should
    look at them for inspiration.

    --
    David Kastrup

Thanks Joseph! I've posted there, we'll wait for it to be approved.

    --------- Original Message ---------
    Subject: Re: Parallel Square Premusic
    From: "Joseph Austin" <address@hidden>
    Date: 3/21/17 11:10 am
    To: address@hidden



          1. Parallel Square Premusic (address@hidden)

        ----------------------------------------------------------------------

        Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 18:11:42 -0700
        From: <address@hidden>
        To: address@hidden
        Subject: Parallel Square Premusic
        Message-ID:
        <address@hidden>

        Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

        Hello guys, I am Vac.

        I have invented an extremely robust and perfectly extensible plaintext file format called Parallel Squares.


    Have,
    You might consider posting your notation to musicnotation.org.
    That groups is specifically concerned with developing new notations or music representations,
    while Lilypond is mostly interested in creating traditional scores.

    Joe Austin

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