Re: double time signature problem

[David Wright]

On Mon 13 Nov 2017 at 17:32:09 (+0100), David Kastrup wrote:
> David Wright <address@hidden> writes:
> 
> > BTW does the German used here sound as archaic as Coverdale's
> > translation (Lift up your heads, O ye gates, and be ye lift up,
> > ye everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in)
> 
> Uh, The Messiah _was_ composed and performed in English.  The libretto
> was written by Charles Jennens, and basically uses Bible passages from
> the KJV version.

I was quoting psalm 24 from the 1662 Book of Common Prayer which used
the Great Bible translation by Coverdale. This is still the traditional
Anglican Psalter. I'm assuming that Hammerschmidt would be setting a
a Lutheran translation? If so, then Coverdale would have been
completely familiar with this text and was probably translating from
it in part.

> In this quote, I see "ye", 2nd person plural nominative (nowadays, the
> accusative is used for everything).  That's all.  Just a tiny bit of
> Early Modern English.  All the rest is quite current-day use.  It's
> similar with other passages: it uses Early Modern English pronouns and
> verb forms (like Shakespeare would) but is pretty standard fare
> otherwise.

"Be you lift up" is not present day usage, nor "heads" in that sense.
Similarly, the second motet in this set uses psalm 51 which in English
would be "Make me a clean heart, O God: and renew a right spirit
within me."

> The problem is that the corresponding Lutheran German _is_ the same as
> modern-day German apart from some spelling differences.  German hasn't
> seen significant grammatical changes or simplifications since then.

… whereas English *has* changed since the days of the Great Bible.
That's why the Church of England seem determined to eliminate this
translation and others like it from most church services. However,
most settings¹ of psalm texts in English use this version, just as
Jennens/Handel did². It's just so well known.

> > or does it resemble contemporary usage?
> 
> Both.

Fair enough; I didn't know that. So how far back do you have to go
in German to hear things that would sound archaic or stilted to
modern ears? I know that Wagner invented an archaic form of German
for the Ring to lend it "authenticity" but did he have sources/
examples to draw on?

¹ But I don't keep up with contemporary composers.
² Almost all the *psalm* texts in Messiah are BCP, not KJV.

Cheers,
David.