Re: [Openvds-devel] Introduction, History of FreeVSD (fwd)

[Simon Burns]

I received this response from Paul, and wasn't sure if it was intended
solely for me or for the list as well. He's given me permission to forward
it to the list.
 
-- 
Simon Burns

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 18:30:06 -0800
From: Paul Marshall <address@hidden>
To: Simon Burns <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: [Openvds-devel] Introduction, History of FreeVSD

Hello,

At 03:59 PM 12/8/01, you wrote:
>Hi Paul, thanks for contributing :) You seem to be approaching this
>project from a commercial angle, and while I respect this I'm not sure why
>it's relevant to a development list. 

Not necessarily. I definitely think that the project should remain GPL.

>That's not to say GPL software is
>incompatible with making money (how much is Red Hat worth now?) 

My point is that OpenVSD should be designed in a way that companies can
either sell solutions using OpenVSD, or sell software that works with
OpenVSD. Control Panels are a good example. I would like to see OpenVSD
and any control panels or interfaces remain separate projects from
OpenVSD, first of all, so that OpenVSD does not become dependant on one
interface. Second, so that companies can create and sell commercial
interfaces to OpenVSD. This is common with MySQL. There are both open
source and commercial interfaces to the database.


>but I
>think that, for now, we should concentrate on getting some work done.

This, by no means, should prevent anyone from getting work done. In fact,
since we are discussing possible rearchitecture, this is a good time to
address these issues. If we trying to develop good software, we need to
address this now. Otherwise we will end up with a bunch of hacks and
patches.

>You're free to make money from GPL software, so am I and everyone else on
>this list. I'm just not sure why you think we need sponsorship, or need to
>worry unduly about the financial aspects at this early stage of the game.

Because I think sponsorship can speed the development time by providing
resources that could otherwise take a considerable amount of time to
acquire. It could make available programmers who would otherwise work on
other projects. In addition, support from an ISP is

>Some specific points:
>
>> I have a lot to offer this project and I would like to be involved. However,
>> I can't do this as a charitable project. While I believe in free and Open
>> Source software, I don't believe in working for free.
>
>So many people *do* work "for free" on Open Source software, that I think
>you're contradicting yourself. 

There is definitely a difference between Free/Open Source software and
working for free. That is a huge misconception. Just because it is Open
Source does not mean that you have to do it for free. I have take several
things that clients paid me to write and made them Open Source. I got paid
to do the work, but I made the code freely available. The client paid me
for my time, not my code. While many open source projects were written
entirely on donated time with no compensation, that is, by no means, a
qualification of Open Source software. Many Open Source projects were
written by people who were paid to do the work, whether it was a direct
request of an employer or just done on company time. Either way the
company paid for the software to be written.

>A number of people have put themselves
>forward to work on this, and I don't remember them asking to get paid. My
>own "payback" would be a stronger product and a credit somewhere, if I'm
>lucky :)

I agree. Don't get me wrong, I will still contribute, however, it would be
on a much smaller scale, if I don't have a source of income from OpenVSD.
I applaud those who have come forward. I am sure that the all will be
limited in the amount of time they can contribute, because all or most of
them have other jobs. Some probably work for ISPs who will pay them to do
this work. Others don't and have to do it on their spare time.


>> I am not looking to get rich, but I have to make a living.
>
>I'm a "resting" computer contractor also looking to offer a hosting
>service. I have to make a living too, but not through VSD. After the end
>of January, I have no idea where the money is coming from (and I have that
>mortgage thing to worry about, kids to feed, etc) and maybe I pack up my
>servers and start looking for a permanent job somewhere. 

Which means that in January, you may be severely limited in how much you
can contribute because you will be looking for work. How much time will
your new employer allow you to spend on OpenVSD? The bottom line is that
we all have to make money. I have a lot of experience with this software,
I am simply trying to leverage that experience. I have hacked FreeVSD to
work fine for my situation. As a result I don't directly benefit from the
work I do on FreeVSD. Trust me, have spent hundreds of hours working on
Virtual Server development, with no return.

> Free Software is
>not about making a living, it's about making good software. Linus
>Torvalds, Richard Stallman, etc, did not start what they do to "make a
>living" -- they did it for plenty of other reasons but that wasn't one of
>them.

Once again, Free Software, doesn't mean working for free. I am not asking
you or anyone else here to pay me, unless of course you work for ISP who
wants to work with me or you want personal support from me. By the way,
neither Stallman nor Torvalds work for free. Both have good jobs. If you
think either of those guys is not getting paid to write Open Source
software at work, you're nuts.


>> I need to be able to offer commercial support to anyone who needs it.
>
>You can do that with GPL software. No problem. I will be doing precisely
>the same :) Now if you're suggesting that this project puts prospects
>through to you, or makes your company the official source of support, I
>hope the other members on this list will agree that this is a no-no.  
>They also have hosting services and would also like to offer support.

I don't think that I should be the "exclusive" or even the "suggested"
channel for support. I am just stating that this is one option for me to
justify the time I spend on OpenVSD. By the way, I am not talking about
support for the end user. I am willing to support the ISPs and those using
OpenVSD. For instance, I can provide setup help, customization,
troubleshooting, etc.


>> An ISP or ISPs need to come on board to fund this project.
>
>Why? We have the resources we need right now. We have servers, coders,
>etc.

Because they will bring the resources to make this happen faster. For
instance, anyone could have taken on the VSDWebAdmin scripts. The web
scripts are rudimentary, buggy, and only work on the early versions.
Numerous people have complained about web admin scripts and the fact that
we need them. We have more CGI/Perl/PHP coders than anything and no one
had redone them yet. Why? Because it is a daunting task. I considered it.
A good comprehensive control panel in PHP would take hundreds of hours. No
one is willing to donate that much time. They will be writing code for
months, since, we all have to do this on our spare time. I don't know
about you, but when and if I have any free time, I like to spend it
fishing or at the race track, not writing code. I do that 60+ hours a
week. If an ISP sponsored the admin scripts, we would have them by now. If
an ISP paid me to do it, we'd have them by now. It doesn't mean that they
wouldn't be open source. It just means someone didn't work for free.

Wait until there are thousands of downloads of hundreds of megs of skels.
How long do you think these kind people who have donated bandwidth will be
able to do it. Eventually, they will be getting outrageous bills for
something they are donating.


>> I haven't seen any mention of any hardcore C/C++ or kernel developers
>
>They're out there :) We can appeal for developers on COLA, we all probably
>know other people who can help. AFAIK, VSD doesn't require a tweaked
>kernel anyway, it would probably be more trouble than it's worth.

That doesn't sound like a solid strategy. How long are you willing to wait
to find them? What happens when you can't find the guy you need. How long
will you wait to find someone who will work for free. Just cause they are
out there doesn't mean they are interested. And it doesn't mean they will
do it for free. People need a reason to be involved.


>> We definitely need some project leads who can direct and manage the
>> project, as well as maintaining focus and direction.
>
>http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/
>
>I know that's not the complete story about Open Source projects, we
>probably do need a stronger "steer" soon. But with CVS, good
>communication, etc, I don't think we need a "leader" as such.

Any organization without a leader is anarchy. I also don't recommend a
single leader, but rather a team, who can make decisions together with the
input of the community.

Take care,

Paul




>FWIW,
>
>
>-- 
>Simon Burns
>
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>
>
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