Re: GNUstep web site and marketing thoughts

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi,

Damianos Sidiropoulos wrote:
> Hello everybody. Just to quickly introduce myself, my name is Damian 
> Szidiropulosz.
>
> Greg and I have been talking about things and the subject of the web 
> site came up. As I have some experience in that area, he asked me if I 
> would take a look at it and perhaps see about working on it.

It is a hot topic, because it has been discussed a lot in several times, 
there are different opinions and different feelings. There is right now 
another open thread with another person having different ideas.

> As you might imagine before any sort of work can be done, one should 
> assess what is already in place. I took a look at it and since one 
> can't really discuss a website without getting into general marketing 
> topics, I started to compile my own thoughts on the subject in the 
> form of some slides.
> Sometimes when there are visual elements involved I do this over 
> simple note taking.

As we have completed putting the website up again (still some dust to be 
cleaned up) I went through almost all pages and did a cleanup and have 
an informal assessment in my mind of what is missing or what is there 
and needs to be improved.
I think we have different starting points but common points.
My big pain is the partial lack of content and thus an unbalanced 
website. Some stuff got lost, removed, was obsolete or never written. 
So, especially the developer part is quite lacking

> In any event, I shared the slides with Greg and he agreed with many of 
> the conclusions. He suggested I share it in the mailing list for 
> feedback. The link is below. Please take a look and share your thoughts.
>
> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1gg42lbgbGf05WUMUIh4UGG_DqIpOKet-H51en3ubOBM/edit?usp=sharing

I apologize for the concise answers which might be look rude. However I 
disagree with how the thesis is stated, thus also don't agree with the 
reasoning, however you touch some interesting points which should be 
discussed.
Essentially, there are some true, but in scope limited, hypothesis which 
lead to too simple conclusions.


First: What is GNUstep?
It is a Cocoa compatible cross platform development framework

-> This is true, but not only. GNUstep is not just this. Maybe we should 
find a term to identify the libraries and identify which are those, It 
could be what is called GNUstep "core" informaly, it could be a bit 
more. It could deserve a catchy name.. like "stairway" for steps of 
objects. Or just GNUSTEP.
But GNUstep also has powerful libraries (e.g. webservices), developer 
tools and applications and a bunch of user applications. At the end, 
GNUstep is the project and you can see on github how much is inside.

Second: What do end users think about GNUstep?
-They tend to think it’s a desktop or window manager
-They think it is limited to the NEXT style UX
-> these opinions are true, we hear them, but there are many more. Also, 
other people understand perfectly what it is about.
Also, while some people find it a "limit" that it has the NeXT look 
(because of their use) there are people (and lately the number of which 
has even grown) who like that look and choose us exactly for that, 
especially people looking for a desktop/workspace. Those who dislike it 
often see GNustep "just" as a framework to do their own work, e.g. 
porting things.

One needs to understand that, or perhaps you change the message seeking 
for other customers loosing other customers (maybe core?).
There are also more problems. People think GNUstep is "dead" as not 
developed anymore, it is uses an obstruse programming language (while 
others really love us because of objective-c). Some people think it is 
bloated or doesn't work here or there (while it does!). People think we 
are difficult to install, etc etc.

Sorry to skip some slides which contain itneresting points... but get to 
here:

GNUstep’s new Message
GNUstep is for developers and not end users

->This message I strongly disagree with, it is the example of wrong 
conclusion given true but limited starting points. GNUstep for me is for 
users and should cater users and be user friendly.
Your message might be correct for "GNUstep Core" (e.g. Staircase). 
Showing it is for developers and not just for "us".

Still, some conclusion you come are correct and apply to "developer" part.
-> text heavy development site.. Our developer section is already text 
heavy. In my opionion too much, so diagrams and screenshot can help 
clarify points (not as "showcasing". What is missing for developers is 
an explanation of possibilities. Why GNUstep? What can it do? Where does 
it run? A narration, not just tech doc and some assorted tutorials
-> emphasize Cocoa compatiblity? yes, up to a point. I think GNUstep is 
interesting for general development, not just as a Cocoa clone. Another 
"discussion point", more true than ever since now Apple is going swift 
and SwiftUI.

Branding:
* Yes, we might need a logo/icon/brand name for the core part, if we wish.
* I agree we should be a little careful on what other projects using us 
make with GNUstep (e.g. all desktop projects).
* We could discuss with WindowMaker people a derived WM icon. I still 
think it fits GNUstep and it is the best window manager to use GNUstep 
with at the moment. Both websites are very clear that GNUstep is not 
Windowmaker and vice-versa, in the updated version of the site they are 
cross-linked almost to humor.
* we should think on how to present the desktop projects. They are 
important and we used to showcase them prominently, now it is more 
subdued.. since they are all different and have different "issues" and 
grade of completeness and there is no official.
* we should check how brands are used. E.g. there exist the GNUSTEP Live 
CD. Looking at it and the way it uses the name it looks as "official" or 
"reference", while it is not. It is a nice contribution.


Lots of topics, but I want to step in and put a foot to stop the 
dangerous idea to reduce GNUstep to its core framework in the presented 
way. It could suit some person, but hurt others.


Riccardo