I'm sorry to have to answer to Yannick, in French bellow
- My goal is not to destroy the current structure but to alert on the fact that Dolibarr is evolving. To see it, just look at the number of dolibarr downloads on Sourceforge: in 2009 it was 5000 / month, we are currently at 25000 / month: https://sourceforge.net/projects/dolibarr/files/stats/timeline?sates=2009-01-01+to+2016-11-16
- The structure and processes / roadmap that was enough ten years ago are no longer suitable. We do not manage a group of 4 contributors performing 3000 commit per year as we do for 75 contributors by realizing 8000 ...
- I know the subject of the open source (I can give my CV if needed) and if I allow myself to be (too) insistent, it is because I measure the destructive impact that a fork would have today: The hour is not to divide but rather to stick together.
- I do not seek to take power (and if I have not been more involved in the project and the association, it is for personal reasons that I do not wish to develop here), I do not criticize Laurent's work That I would be quite incapable of doing (would he like to do mine ...), just make this mulehead understand that the environment of dolibarr is evolving and that it is necessary to evolve. I am aware that my request will generate more work, the question is not to ask Laurent to work more but to think about for us to absorb this extra workload.
- Meritocracy is also to recognize each person's talents and to use them to move forward. By dint of persisting on the same path, they will eventually leave elsewhere (with or without fork)
- I am not complaining about the workload related to its upgrades too fast (my modules are more regularly updated than dolibarr ...), but the integrators and users of dolibarr: OUR CUSTOMERS, those who allow us to earn our living thanks to dolibarr !!! If we do not take a minimum of attention to their claims, we will return to our solitary developments
- One more thing, it is not a few months but a few years that I get involved in the project dolibarr (cf my contrib on github) : I’m not Dark Vador, but I hope, Princess Lea ;-)
Regard
Charlie Benke
French Translation
Désolée de devoir répondre à Yannick
- Mon but n'est pas de détruire la structure actuelle mais d’alerter sur le fait que Dolibarr est en train d'évoluer. Pour le constater,il suffit de regarder le nombre de téléchargement de dolibarr sur Sourceforge : en 2009 il était 5000/mois , nous sommes actuellement à 25000/mois : https://sourceforge.net/projects/dolibarr/files/stats/timeline?dates=2009-01-01+to+2016-11-16
- La structure et les process/roadmap qui suffisait il y a dix ans ne sont plus adapté. On ne gère pas un groupe de 4 contributeurs réalisant 4000 commit par an comme on le fait pour 75 contributeurs en réalisant 8000…
- Je pense bien connaitre le sujet de l’open source (je peut t’envoyer mon CV si besoin) et si je me permets d’être (trop) insistante, c’est que je mesure l’impact destructeur qu’aurait un fork aujourd’hui : L’heure n’est pas à diviser mais au contraire de nous serrer les coudes.
- Je ne cherche pas prendre le pouvoir (et si je ne me suis pas plus impliquée dans le projet et l’association, c’est pour des raisons personnelles que je ne souhaite pas développer ici), je ne critique pas le travail de Laurent que je serai bien incapable de faire (souhaiterait-il faire le mien d’ailleurs…), juste faire comprendre à cette tête de mule que l’environnement de dolibarr évolue et qu’il est nécessaire d’évoluer. J’ai conscience que ma demande générera plus de travail, la question n’est pas de demander à Laurent travailler plus mais de réfléchir pour NOUS permettre d’absorber cette charge de travail supplémentaire.
- La méritocratie c’est de reconnaitre aussi à chacun ses talents et à force de s’entêter sur la même voie, ils finiront par partir ailleurs (avec ou sans fork)
- Ce n’est pas moi qui me plaint de la charge de travail liée à ses montées de version trop rapide (mes modules sont d’ailleurs plus régulièrement mis à jours que dolibarr…), mais les intégrateurs et les utilisateurs de dolibarr : NOS CLIENTS, ceux qui nous permettent de gagner notre vie grâce à dolibarr !!! Si nous ne prenons pas un minimum d’attention à leurs revendications, nous retourneront à nos développements solitaires…
- Au passage, cela ne fait pas quelques mois mais quelques années que je m’implique au niveau du projet dolibarr (cf mes contrib sur github) : je ne suis pas Dark Vador mais, je l’espère, la princesse Léa ;-)
Bien cordialement,
Charlie Benke
De : Dolibarr-dev [mailto:address@hidden De la part de Sasa Ostrouska
Envoyé : mercredi 16 novembre 2016 11:32
À : Posts about Dolibarr ERP & CRM development and coding <address@hidden>
Objet : Re: [Dolibarr-dev] Dolibarr 5.0 freeze and new version 4.0.2
On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 12:16 AM, Yannick Warnier <address@hidden> wrote:
Hi Charles,
I would try to avoid suggesting that you should answer this, so just so you know I'm just explaining, I'm not trying to launch you on another Star Destroyer campaign to destroy the current structure of the Dolibarr project.
You seem to be new to the way Open Source works. If you do not agree with the way things are handled and you think you can do better, you are completely free to fork the project. That's just in case you didn't know.
Open Source development just works in a different way because, as opposed to closed-source software developed inside a single company, there is no way to have all contributors timelines match, so the status of one version is never "completely finished" for all modules. It might be upsetting to you, but it's the way it works. This is the case for huge projects, not only Dolibarr.
Regarding Darth Vador, as the leaders of the Ubuntu project once put it, Open Source is *not* a democracy, it's a meritocracy based on contributions and helpfulness to others.
Democracy may work for governments and the political sphere, but in software communities, what counts is that you can ensure the project continues to work in the long run, and that is done by enforcing a very precise balance between too little rules and too many rules. If you set too many rules, chances are new people will not get involved into the project. If you set too little rules, people will do whatever they like and you'll end up with hundreds of forks and bloated forums.
Laurent has been driving the Dolibarr project for years now. With the help of many, yes, but nevertheless, Dolibarr would probably have disappeared without him providing the necessary stability to the software contributions, forum, etc.
As such, and as far as I am aware, Laurent is the biggest BDFL of Dolibarr. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictator_for_life
Pretending to come after a few months of activity on the project and wanting to change everything is not going to work because that happened before and those same people who came and shouted for changes went away and the project continued without them.
I myself worked on Dolibarr in 2004 or so and I'm still around reading your posts (and still using Dolibarr as well), see?
Although the way the project is handled or some technical stuff might not please me, I personally don't see think following the changes you suggest will bring anything substantially different. As Laurent said, you can already choose the rythm of your upgrades yourself.
If what you want is to reduce your amount of work to integrate modules, please consider that this is likely to increase the amount of work of others. Of course, you could go and try to demonstrate that it won't, but the time you will take to demonstrate that will render the time gained by applying the suggested changes useless.
Seeing how this discussion drags on and there's little written support for Laurent, I thought I'd voice the thoughts of other people reading this and not wanting to take part because we have better things to do with our lives.
Thanks Laurent for your patience, as always. Most appreciated.
--
Cheers,
Yannick Warnier
BDSL and association's elected president
Chamilo project
I could not resist, very well written and explained. This is also my opinion, there was so many times the same problem with the same person, but the reality is, that as Yannick said, fork it if you are not satisfied and do it your own baby.
Le 08/11/16 à 15:50, Charles Benke a écrit :
In the star wars saga, the emperor was the one to make decisions, the
Jedi had a council governing collegially…
May the force be with you…
Bien cordialement,
Charlie Benke
*De :*Dolibarr-dev
[mailto:dolibarr-dev-bounces+charles.fr=address@hidden] *De la part
de* Laurent Destailleur (aka Eldy)
*Envoyé :* mardi 8 novembre 2016 21:07
*À :* Posts about Dolibarr ERP & CRM development and coding
<address@hidden>
*Objet :* Re: [Dolibarr-dev] Dolibarr 5.0 freeze and new version 4.0.2
The status of new module you mention is the status when the freeze start.
It is only at the end of the beta we can know if they are moved with
stable status.
Also a major version is not necessarly a version with a new module. You
probably decide this yourself but it is not.
So please again, stop trying to deny Dolibarr project by providing false
information on this mailing list and trying to cunfusing other readers.
Hi community, it seems we have a new Dark Vador in Dolibarr galaxy !
2016-11-08 13:32 GMT+01:00 Charles Benke <address@hidden
<mailto:address@hidden>>:
As reading on module
Accountancy : experimental
Multicurrency : develop
So call IT as you want IS NOT A MAJOR VERSION
You speak that “Version 5.0 has a very good compatibility behaviour
with external modules, “ witch external modules have you tested? All
present in the dolistore?
I would have preferred that we work more on the stability of
previous major versions to continue this headlong counterproductive.
I hope them we can discuss how the project is managed, it is time
after 10 years actually change ...
Bien cordialement,
Charlie Benke
*De :*Dolibarr-dev [mailto:dolibarr-dev-bounces+charles.fr
<mailto:dolibarr-dev-bounces%2Bcharles.fr>=address@hidden
<mailto:address@hidden>] *De la part de* Laurent Destailleur
(aka Eldy)
*Envoyé :* mardi 8 novembre 2016 00:11
*À :* ML Dolibarr dev <address@hidden
<mailto:address@hidden>>
*Objet :* [Dolibarr-dev] Dolibarr 5.0 freeze and new version 4.0.2
Hi Dolibarr developers.
Time to start the beta of the next major version has come. The
release candidate version should be ready for January, so as usual,
we must start the beta period few month ago, so now.
To follow modern pratice about namin convention, next major version
followin the 4.0 will be called 5.0 and not 4.1. I still don't know
why we spent so many times (10 years) to increase the second level
of number used commonly to describe a minor chane when it was major
release, but well, late is better than never.
So, starting from this week-end, the beta period for 5.0 will be
launched. No new features will be added from PR.
As usual, "started development" are allowed to be continued to be
finished for final release. Work on not stable modules are also
still opened because such modules won't be visible by users. Among
works already started and that are qualified to continue to push PR
that are not bu fixed, we may find:
- work on advanced accountancy (double party) module,
- multicurrency module
- work to simplify code to support oauth
- website module
- management of a VAT code to be able to distinguish different VAT
with same rate
- theme enhancement to be more responsive designed
- uniformization of the look and feel and usae of the dol_banner for
all tabs.
- translation changes
- changes required to allow package generations
After the freeze, new features will be suspended until the branch
for 5.0 is created. Then merging PR for new features will be
possible again into develop branch.
Also, architecture, reenginering, or best practice code enhancements
will be discarded during this period. Instead any help is welcome to
fix all opened bug: See https://github.com/Dolibarr/dolibarr/issues
More information on what a "freeze"
mean: https://wiki.dolibarr.org/index.php/Category:RoadMap
Version 5.0 has a very good compatibility behaviour with external
modules, so you can already check your external modules are still
working with this version.
A Changelog (not yet detailed with coming new features) is available
in the current development branch that will be used to start the
freeze to give information on what was changed and may need
attention of external developers or upgraders.
Also, note that a maintenance version, version 4.0.2 was released
few days ago to provide recent fixes available for branch 4.0.
More information on what a "maintenance version"
mean: https://wiki.dolibarr.org/index.php/Category:RoadMap
Laurent Destailleur, aka Eldy
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