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Re: Eev-wconfig.el etc etc, or: "Exercise: Learn Org!"
From: |
Eduardo Ochs |
Subject: |
Re: Eev-wconfig.el etc etc, or: "Exercise: Learn Org!" |
Date: |
Fri, 27 May 2022 19:36:03 -0300 |
Hi Ihor!
Thanks for your questions!
On Fri, 27 May 2022 at 11:30, Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> wrote:
> You are discussing too many things at once in one video.
Yes - that's why I made an index for the video:
(find-1stclassvideoindex "2022eevwconfig")
http://angg.twu.net/.emacs.videos.html#2022eevwconfig
> What is the main point you want to explain in the video? How to
> download, watch, and annotate a series of videos? If so, you only talk
> about it in the last minutes of the presentation.
The video has many "main points".
> Also, do you expect people new to emacs understand all the
> (commmand args) staff?
Yes, in my view of "what is Emacs" the first thing that people need to
learn is eval-last-sexp and its more convenient variants. See the page
10 of my slides for the EmacsConf2019:
http://angg.twu.net/LATEX/2019emacsconf.pdf#page=10
> I still fail to understand what is the advantage of eev compared to Org
> or Hyperbole (which also provides context-free actionable links).
Here are my current hypotheses: 1) my brain is wired in an atypical
way; 2) about 95% of the people find Org "easy" and "fun", and eev
makes no sense to them - and about 5% of the people find Org very
hard, and they find eev much "easier" and "more fun" than Org.
I explained this in the eev-wconfig video, starting from 33:27:
(find-2022eevwconfigvideo "33:27")
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm29XSdGCXw#t=33m27s
That part mentions this other video,
Title: Org for Non-Users (2021)
MP4: http://angg.twu.net/eev-videos/2021-org-for-non-users.mp4
YT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh5Wz9Vh_XM
Page: http://angg.twu.net/2021-org-for-non-users.html
Comment: On why Org and eev follow opposite principles.
Date: 2021dec11
Length: 10:08
Index: http://angg.twu.net/.emacs.videos.html#2021orgfornonusers
(find-1stclassvideoindex "2021orgfornonusers")
and sort of summarizes it. Let me copy here the subtitles of that part
of the eev-wconfig video:
So: in this video I explained why I have
always found Org so hard to learn...
and the thing is that many things in Org
are implemented in ways that i
don't understand,
and practically every time that I try to
learn more more features of org
I get stuck, because I start to ask
questions like:
hey, how is this implemented?
And I get stuck trying to trying to
answer these questions, that are not
typical user questions...
and
I get stuck on that instead of
simply learning how to use the features
of Org as a user.
So: I find
Org confusing because my brain is wired
in a weird way...
and, in the language of black boxes what
happens
is that when I try to learn Org...
I try to learn a new feature, I see lots
of black boxes,
I try to open these black boxes, and I
fail miserably... and I get frustrated and
exhausted I, do not learn the feature and
I postpone learning the feature
to another day, and in the other day I try
it again, I see other black boxes, I try
to understand them again, and blah blah,
rinse and repeat...
and I also have exactly the same
relationship with M-x customized, that
the standard way in Emacs to configure
certain things
and to customize certain things.
Let me show how customize works
We can either type M-x customize or
run this sexp here, that
simulates what happens when we type
M-x customize.
Customize creates a temporary buffer
like this one...
it has this mysterious field here, it
has parts that are not editable - for
example, if I type a letter here - oops
if I type a letter here
it says "you can't edit this part of the
Custom buffer"... it has buttons,
it has different fonts, different colors,
it has links, and so on...
and if I follow these links in
the right way I
can get to places like this one
which is a
sub menu with sub options,
I can
get to a place like
this one
that
offers many
things
that can be configured, each one with an
explanation...
I can execute things like this one, that
opens this page, in which I can customize
a
variable...
and things like this in which I can
customize a face to change its color, to
change its font... and so on -
and for me all these things - all these
buttons, this rectangle here, in which I
can
put text
all these things are...
magic - and they are black boxes that I
find very hard to open.
And over the years I have experimented
with several alternatives to
customize that "use less magic"...
I've documented some of my attempts in
this page here,
and
this thing that I'm presenting now -
eev-wconfig.el - this is
the next step: it uses all the ideas in
this page,
and a few other new ideas.
> I recommend recording a much shorted video demonstrating a singe task
> you perform using eev. No need to side track explaining Elisp syntax. No
> need to show troubleshooting. No need to show things users "are not
> supposed to understand". No need to show initial configuration with all
> possible caveats.
There are lots of short demos scattered through the videos... here's
one that has subtitles. If you run this
# Index: http://angg.twu.net/.emacs.videos.html#2022pict2elua
# Info: (find-1stclassvideo-links "2022pict2elua")
export S=$HOME/snarf
mkdir -p $S/http/angg.twu.net/eev-videos/
cd $S/http/angg.twu.net/eev-videos/
wget -nc http://angg.twu.net/eev-videos/2022-pict2e-lua.mp4
wget -nc http://angg.twu.net/eev-videos/2022-pict2e-lua.vtt
mpv $S/http/angg.twu.net/eev-videos/2022-pict2e-lua.mp4
then you can use the keys [ and ] to make mpv change the playing
speed, and you can watch the full 8-minute video in just one or two
minutes. If you prefer to watch it on Youtube the link is this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiHsUhGVLGM
> No need to side track explaining Elisp syntax. No
> need to show troubleshooting. No need to show things users "are not
> supposed to understand". No need to show initial configuration with all
> possible caveats.
Can you explain these "no need"s? Except for the red stars and anchors
_all_ the "markup language" of eev consists of explicit sexps...
> You argue that Org is a "black box", but your code is also a black box
> in a sense that one needs to read the "wconfig" files (AFAIU). How is it
> different compared to Org written in Elisp following the usual
> documentation conventions described in the Elisp manual?
Eev-wconfig is only needed for configuring things on Windows. On, say,
Debian, people only need to install google-chrome (obs: it's easy to
use other browsers instead), and do this:
sudo apt-get install wget xpdf pdftotext mpv
after that all the features will work.
Here are two examples of cases in which I stumbled on black boxes that
I never managed to open properly, one in Org and one in Hyperbole:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2021-12/msg00674.html
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2022-02/threads.html#00098
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/hyperbole-users/2020-09/msg00012.html
Cheers,
Eduardo Ochs
http://angg.twu.net/#eev
http://angg.twu.net/#eev-blogposts
- Eev-wconfig.el etc etc, or: "Exercise: Learn Org!", Eduardo Ochs, 2022/05/22
- Re: Eev-wconfig.el etc etc, or: "Exercise: Learn Org!", Ihor Radchenko, 2022/05/27
- Re: Eev-wconfig.el etc etc, or: "Exercise: Learn Org!",
Eduardo Ochs <=
- Re: Eev-wconfig.el etc etc, or: "Exercise: Learn Org!", Ihor Radchenko, 2022/05/28
- Re: Eev-wconfig.el etc etc, or: "Exercise: Learn Org!", Eduardo Ochs, 2022/05/28
- Re: Eev-wconfig.el etc etc, or: "Exercise: Learn Org!", Ihor Radchenko, 2022/05/29
- Re: Eev-wconfig.el etc etc, or: "Exercise: Learn Org!", Eduardo Ochs, 2022/05/30