On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 4:34 PM,
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Removal candidates (Bastiaan Jacques)
2. Re: Removal candidates (Benjamin Wolsey)
3. Re: Removal candidates (Rob Savoye)
4. Re: Removal candidates (Sandro Santilli)
5. Re: Removal candidates (Benjamin Wolsey)
6. Re: Removal candidates (Rob Savoye)
7. Re: Removal candidates (Brad)
8. Re: Removal candidates (Rob Savoye)
9. Re: Removal candidates (John Gilmore)
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Message: 1
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 20:30:21 +0100 (CET)
From: Bastiaan Jacques <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: [Gnash-dev] Removal candidates
To: Benjamin Wolsey <address@hidden>
Cc: address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII
I'm wondering whether the FLTK GUI is used at all. When it was written
years ago, the idea was that FLTK2 would be released soon, but that
still hasn't happened. I can sort of see keeping this for portability
reasons, but even mingw32 comes with GTK these days.
I'm fairly certain nobody uses the Aqua (native OSX) GUI either, seeing
as it has never worked correctly. If a native OSX application bundle is
to be built, I think it should use GTK anyway; even the GTK2 port for
OSX implements enough features for Gnash.
They would both be candidates for removal in my view.
Bastiaan
On Thu, 17 Mar 2011, Benjamin Wolsey wrote:
> Also for any other code that has become unused.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 20:44:09 +0100
From: Benjamin Wolsey <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: [Gnash-dev] Removal candidates
To: Bastiaan Jacques <address@hidden>
Cc: address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Am Freitag, den 18.03.2011, 20:30 +0100 schrieb Bastiaan Jacques:
> I'm wondering whether the FLTK GUI is used at all. When it was written
> years ago, the idea was that FLTK2 would be released soon, but that
> still hasn't happened. I can sort of see keeping this for portability
> reasons, but even mingw32 comes with GTK these days.
FLTK 2 is permanently discontinued as far as I know, so I also would
recommend removing it.
> I'm fairly certain nobody uses the Aqua (native OSX) GUI either, seeing
> as it has never worked correctly. If a native OSX application bundle is
> to be built, I think it should use GTK anyway; even the GTK2 port for
> OSX implements enough features for Gnash.
Also fine by me. I'm in fact happy to remove all GUIs except SDL, GTK,
FB, and KDE4 since I don't believe the others are used, and each GUI
increases the maintenance burden considerably. I only care about SDL
because I haven't got anything else working under w32; otherwise it's
not a particularly wonderful GUI.
bwy
--
--
Use Gnash, the GNU Flash Player!
http://www.gnu.org/software/gnash/
Benjamin Wolsey, Software Developer - http://benjaminwolsey.de
C++ and Open-Source Flash blog - http://www.benjaminwolsey.de/bwysblog
xmpp:address@hidden
http://identi.ca/bwy
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 14:09:28 -0600
From: Rob Savoye <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: [Gnash-dev] Removal candidates
Cc: address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On 03/18/2011 01:44 PM, Benjamin Wolsey wrote:
> FLTK 2 is permanently discontinued as far as I know, so I also would
> recommend removing it.
I wrote the FLTK2 GUI to replace SDL, but as FLTK2 never really got
released by the FLTK developers, it's never been used as far as I'm
aware. SDL truly sucks. It has a terrible event loop, and if hadn't been
used by GameSWF, I would have never used it either. I actually wish we
could get rid of the SDL dependency in libmedia too.
> Also fine by me. I'm in fact happy to remove all GUIs except SDL,
> GTK, FB, and KDE4 since I don't believe the others are used, and each
> GUI increases the maintenance burden considerably. I only care about
> SDL because I haven't got anything else working under w32; otherwise
> it's not a particularly wonderful GUI.
Personally, the additional GUIs add very little maintenance, and I
base this on all the years I've worked on Gnash. GTK2 is of course the
best supported, SDL we're stuck with, and KDE4 we should keep to support
those users. The Aqua GUI was supposed to get Gnash working more like a
native OSX application, but it's been unfinished now for years...
I don't barely understand this urge to remove code from Gnash that
works. As one of the 4 software freedoms is the freedom to run code on
any hardware you choose, these GUIs allow that. Now that OS/2 users have
no support as of earlier today, I assume Haiku is next.
What is the point ? To reduce the line count ? Lately it seems more
code is getting deleted from Gnash than added... How come nobody works
on new features anymore ? If AVM2 support got as much attention as all
this "clean-up", it'd be complete by now instead of deleted...
- rob -
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 21:24:39 +0100
From: Sandro Santilli <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: [Gnash-dev] Removal candidates
To: Rob Savoye <address@hidden>
Cc: address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 02:09:28PM -0600, Rob Savoye wrote:
> I don't barely understand this urge to remove code from Gnash
I think the GUI subsystem needs a pretty wide refactoring, to
do things like start up a gui w/out a movie and allow file->open.
Doing that and still keep support for all GUIs would be much more
work for whoever is going to do it. Of course we can decide to
decouple the two things and only ask whoever is going to do that
work to keep the default-built GUIs: gtk/kde/sdl/fb/dump
It's still a big set, but at least might scare a bit less.
--strk;
() Free GIS & Flash consultant/developer
/\ http://strk.keybit.net/services.html
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 21:27:43 +0100
From: Benjamin Wolsey <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: [Gnash-dev] Removal candidates
To: Rob Savoye <address@hidden>
Cc: address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> I don't barely understand this urge to remove code from Gnash that
> works. As one of the 4 software freedoms is the freedom to run code on
> any hardware you choose, these GUIs allow that. Now that OS/2 users have
> no support as of earlier today, I assume Haiku is next.
I think I may have misinterpreted what you said in your email about
riscos. Still, it hasn't been compilable for months if not years, so is
neither internally nor externally maintained. In this case too it is not
plausible to suggest that uncompilable code has any users.
I'll put it back if anyone wants. But I think it would only be fair if
that person also maintained it.
No working code has been removed from Gnash in the last couple of weeks.
> What is the point ? To reduce the line count ? Lately it seems more
> code is getting deleted from Gnash than added...
That's not a bad thing. Indeed I always try to remove more than I add,
because Gnash has too much unmaintained code.
> How come nobody works
> on new features anymore ?
Partly because changing the GUI interface can involve adapting six or
seven GUIs, changing the rendering interface involves currently 3
renderers, apparently soon to be more. With the limited time we have as
a small number of volunteers, that makes certain tasks very slow.
bwy
--
--
Use Gnash, the GNU Flash Player!
http://www.gnu.org/software/gnash/
Benjamin Wolsey, Software Developer - http://benjaminwolsey.de
C++ and Open-Source Flash blog - http://www.benjaminwolsey.de/bwysblog
xmpp:address@hidden
http://identi.ca/bwy
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Message: 6
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 14:35:46 -0600
From: Rob Savoye <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: [Gnash-dev] Removal candidates
To: address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On 03/18/2011 02:24 PM, Sandro Santilli wrote:
> I think the GUI subsystem needs a pretty wide refactoring, to
> do things like start up a gui w/out a movie and allow file->open.
As I said, we need to stop refactoring existing code endlessly, and
work on adding new code for both AVM2, and other things Gnash currently
doesn't support. While refactoring is nice, it's like spinning ones
tires in the mud, ie... we don't more forward... Unless Gnash moves
forward, we're a dying project in my opinion.
AVM2 is way more important than any refactoring of existing internal
APIs. Now refactoring to support AVM2, that would be fine. With the
limited resources we have, refactoring just for the hell of it is a
waste of time.
> It's still a big set, but at least might scare a bit less.
Real hackers aren't scared of code size (nor complexity) :-) You think
Gnash is bad, you would have hated working on GCC...
- rob -
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 17:06:04 -0400
From: Brad <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: [Gnash-dev] Removal candidates
To: Rob Savoye <address@hidden>
Cc: address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 18/03/11 4:35 PM, Rob Savoye wrote:
> Real hackers aren't scared of code size (nor complexity) :-) You think
> Gnash is bad, you would have hated working on GCC...
and GCC is a good example of how not to do things.
--
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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 15:09:46 -0600
From: Rob Savoye <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: [Gnash-dev] Removal candidates
Cc: address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On 03/18/2011 03:06 PM, Brad wrote:
> and GCC is a good example of how not to do things.
I wouldn't say that, GCC is the world's most portable software... Yes,
it's complexity takes months if not years to get used to as a developer,
but the benefits to end users are worth the pain.
- rob -
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 00:33:59 -0800
From: John Gilmore <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: [Gnash-dev] Removal candidates
To: address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Please stop removing things from gnash, and restore the ones that have
been removed. There is no consensus to remove these things, even if
they don't currently work. Doing it in the absence of consensus just
creates unnecessary friction among the few remaining developers.
When a volunteer comes along who wants to revive that corner of the
project, it will be much harder for them to do so if they have to root
around in ancient releases just to find a copy of the formerly-working
code base.
As someone who still runs machines with ancient Unix / Linux releases,
I really appreciate when a software project that doesn't "support" my
old environments still makes it possible for me to get their code
running on those environments in an hour -- and post back the changes
so everyone can benefit. The alternative, projects that drop support
for anything that they can't currently test nor personally care about,
mean I have to keep running old releases, and if I need new bugfixes
or features, I have to either port them into the old release, or port
the old support for my machine into the new release. Both of those
take much longer than the hour needed to fix little stuff that breaks,
like when I run ./configure or make, or when a struct initializer
doesn't contain new members added since last time it was tested.
John
PS: I just today built openssl-1.0.0d and bind-9.8.0 on an ancient
machine, and found exactly one such problem, which I'm about to report
back the patch for.
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