Re: Starting GNUstep (Debian)

[Alex Perez]

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Philippe C.D. Robert wrote:

> On Sep 23, 2004, at 7:45 PM, Alex Perez wrote:
> > Patrix wrote:
> >
> >> This is a good point and, imho, one of the reasons GNOME and KDE are
> >> more widely used - I remember using KDE 0.0.2 or whatever early
> >> version they had, and I could _use_ it. It had a window manager, a
> >> panel and a file manager that crashed every time I dragged something
> >> to the trash. But I could use it.
> >
> > G.I.N.A.D.E. G.I.N.A.D.E. G.I.N.A.D.E. G.I.N.A.D.E. G.I.N.A.D.E.
> > G N U S T E P   I S   N O T  A  D E S K T O P   E N V I R O N M E N T
> 
> G.S.B.A.D.E G.S.B.A.D.E G.S.B.A.D.E G.S.B.A.D.E G.S.B.A.D.E G.S.B.A.D.E
> G N U S T EP  S H O U L D  B E  A  D E S K T O P  E N V I R O N M E N T

I couldn't agree more. But today it is not, and anyone that thinks 
otherwise is living in an alternate reality.
> 
> > Seriously, it's not. There are several projects to *USE* GNUstep in a 
> > gnustep-centric development environment, but what you are doing is 
> > akin to calling 'kdelibs' a "Desktop Environment". You are comparing 
> > apples to oranges, and not even realizing it.
> 
> Seriously, it should be. This is IMHHO the main reason for its low 
> acceptance, or should I say complete lack of acceptance....?
Once again, I agree completely.
> 
> WRT to wording, KDE is the desktop environment which uses several 
> kdelibs. The same should hold for GNUstep, GNUstep should be the 
> desktop environment which uses our gnustep-* libs (among others). 
> GNUstep is more than just some libs, right now it is the "development 
> environment" which uses and includes the gnustep-* libs.
Agree :)
> 
> In fact, today we have a weird situation because officially GS is not a 
> desktop environment, but the website mentions the "GNUstep user 
> experience" or "official GNUstep applications", totally weird IMHO for 
> an "OO framework and tool set"....
Yes! Starting to see a pattern here? 
> 
> >> GNUstep however always maintained they were implementing the OpenStep
> >> api and not a desktop environment, and for a long while didn't have a
> >> usable environment (except for GNUMail.app). So of course, users like
> >> me would see this and say - hm? There's nothing to use here and move
> >> on to gnome or kde, even though I liked the elegance of the *step gui
> >> and api.
> > GNUMail is not an "environment" so I don't see your point. Yes it's 
> > true that we maintain that GNUstep is not a desktop environment 
> > because IT IS NOT. There are many, many, many things that a real 
> > desktop environment needs to provide which GNUstep does not, will not, 
> > and should not provide.
> 
> It is not a desktop because some people insist it is not, but not 
> because it cannot be(come) one.
> 
> > That shouldn't be an option, because GNUstep is not a desktop 
> > environment. WindowMaker should be started, and then from there the 
> > various GNUstep apps should be started.
> 
> So you wouldn't call KDE a desktop environment, because according to 
> your reasoning kwm is first being started and from there various apps 
> are launched which use the kdelibs and whatsoever? Common, this is just 
> ridiculous!
> 
> >>> It was pointed out to me that unlike KDE and GNOME, GNUstep is not a
> >>> desktop environment.  I question the value of such a distinction.
> > The fact that you question it merely means you don't know what you're 
> > talking about. Would you call "Cocoa" a desktop environment? No, 
> > because that's simply not what it is. GNUstep is akin to Cocoa's 
> > Foundation and AppKit.
> 
> GNUstep is not just AppKit + FoundationKit, GNUstep is a "development 
> environment", it consists of these 2 frameworks but it also includes 
> tools and some apps.
> 
> The (old...) question IMHO is: is a development environment sufficient, 
> is this really what users/developers expect from GNUstep? Are you as a 
> developer confident, that an app(*) written using GNUstep (the various 
> libs) will be accepted by users which are using the KDE or GNOME 
> desktop environment? Do you really believe users accept applications 
> which do not integrate 100% in their desktop environment of choice? Are 
> you as a user willing to use apps which do not fit into your 
> environment, unless you have to? Personally I do not believe so. And 
> that's why I believe GNUstep in its current form is doomed to fail, not 
> to say it already did - unless of course it is the goal to attract very 
> few developers which only develop custom, inhouse applications using 
> GNUstep...
> 
> cheers,
> 
> -Phil
> 
> (*): I am talking about apps here having a UI, of course.
> --
> Philippe C.D. Robert
> http://reality.sgi.com/probert/
>