Re: follow-up to report 22

[Valentin Villenave]

On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 6:16 PM, Graham Percival
<address@hidden> wrote:
> I spent 5 minutes trying to post my latest reply, but the forum
> software continually complained that I had used wrong words, tags,
> or symbols, and thus it rejected my comment as spam.  I am posting
> my reply here instead.

I am not sure if it is a "reply", since I have the feeling we're back
where we started.

Although there's nothing wrong with discussing things on the list, I
thought we were already making progress, and yet your last mail
overlooks some of the most sensible arguments we were starting to
exchange; instead, you're now presenting me as a lot more rude than I
really am or ever was.

> Before discussing anything specific, I want to settle the abstract
> question "should an OSS project have any kind of private mailing
> list?".

I don't know. You tell me.
I might add: I'm fine either way really, as long as it is done
properly and can't possibly be interpreted as something disrespectful.
(And I'm not saying that it's the case now: what I'm saying is that I
personally feel that way, but I'm quite unsure how accurate my
feelings are.)

> 2) Agree that an OSS project can, in theory, have a private
> mailing list.  And apologize.

*sigh* I do apologize if you felt offended (which you obviously do).
However, I can assure you that my goal is not to make you feel that
way.
Please also note that, whilst I may on occasion feel like there's a
lack of respect towards some people in the community, I am constantly
taking into account the fact that I am probably overly sensitive, and
thus I haven't been demanding any apology or whatever.

(Just for the record, these two recent emails are unrelated to what
we're discussing, but do help me make my point:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-devel/2010-11/msg00037.html
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-devel/2010-11/msg00048.html
I found the first one to be aggressive, and the second one,
disdainful. I don't (shouldn't) need to tell you how Han-Wen and you
are appreciated and admired, and I usually side with you in such
cases, but with all due respect I think you also need someone to tell
you when you're crossing the line.)

> You have named me as "abnormal, unethical, and deceiving".

I have not. I did use these words, but didn't attack you (nor anyone
else) in any way, and especially not "ad hominem". And, yes, keeping
the mere existence of a mailing list undisclosed is not something that
I'd normally expect. And, yes, to me it does have a taste of deception
-- didn't I make abundantly clear that it was *my* personal feeling,
given the information I had?

> which presumably
> means that you consider Debian, freebsd, svn, and lilypond to be
> *indecent* projects.

Please. Sophisms won't cut it.

(OK, non-grumpy version now.) Have you read my last comment? What I
take issue with is not the fact that private MLs exist, but the fact
that, in the LilyPond project, nobody has ever bothered telling people
about it. (At least, from where I'm standing.)

>  You accused me of being ready to give
> "-excuses- reasons", and that the "dear readers" would be ready to
> judge me.  You continually mock me as a member of the "Cool Kids
> Club".

As I said above, I do not intend to mock you or anyone. What I wrote
is how I feel like: I have to acknowledge my own frustration, that is
in many ways comparable to a child in the playground, who's kept from
joining the people he finds the most interesting and amusing. If
anything, I'm caricaturing my own self here.

Granted, it is very personal and emotional, and it probably can sound
quite unfair to you or other people. BUT, this is definitely not the
point I wanted to make.

> You chose the most public venue we have to attack me.  I thought
> we were working together on the Report; imagine my surprise when I
> began reading this issue and found your "post-scriptum".  I
> understand that you do not trust me; that is regrettable, but I do
> not believe that this justifies your insults.

Graham. Please, do read my last comment:
http://news.lilynet.net/The-LilyPond-Report-22#forum675
Although there's a good chance that my tone is still bitter and
frustrated (I am not sure exactly how offensive the word "debunk"
sounds, for example), I really am trying to see things from a more
rational angle, and to offer some concrete suggestions:

"""
    * First, tell us (not a royal "we", I do mean _us_) *what* exactly
lp-hackers is. _Who_ exactly is subscribed to this list? What kind of
things are you guys talking about? (I’m not asking for specifics.)

    * Then tell us if, Yes or No, you guys *do* need it. You made a
valid theoretical point but in the same time you said it actually
wasn’t used. I have yet to read something clear about that.

    * Then tell us if/how you plan to make things a little more legit.
May I suggest, for example, mentioning -hackers on
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.13/Documentation/contributor/unsorted-policies
? And possibly maintaining a list of -hackers people on the Wiki (I
plan to copy Xavier’s complete list, possibly with Jean-Christophe’s
additions, on the Wiki anyway — then, from this exhaustive list, we’ll
see what to put on the Contacts page; of course I am not advocating
that -hackers should go on contact.html).

    * Optionally, consider adopting a policy that would be more
respectful of the community. May I suggest, for instance, to keep the
archives private only for five years? (i.e. make discussions older
than 5 years public or, if technically more convenient, copy/paste a
bulk digest somewhere public.) There’s little chance that people who
might have been offended at the time, would still take issue five
years later; as for security issues blah blah blah, I think my point
is made.

You cited (and rightly so) the Debian project as an example. However,
I probably don’t need to tell you how formal (and bureaucratic) the
Debian organization is. Everyone is elected, people know exactly who’s
doing what and when accordingly to their mandate.
"

For the sake of completeness, I also must remind you that I sent you
several private emails this months, the most recent one no later than
yesterday evening after having read your first comment.

I'm glad you're proud of the work you're doing with the LilyPond
project; you have every right to be, and nobody has ever been
disputing that. And I know you well enough to be perfectly aware that
you really are not as condescending or obnoxious as some people are
led to believe every now and then.

And on the contrary, I know myself well enough to suspect that I might
be overly sensitive or hysterical, as I repeatedly stated (it's kinda
getting old, really). Or just an ass, I'll let you decide :-)

However, if there is anything at all to be learned from what I
testified, then perhaps it would help the community and the project in
the end. You obviously think there isn't, which is why I felt the need
to ask around in the first place. (Now I'm repeating myself, so please
just read my last comment for more.)

Yours respectfully,
Valentin.