Re: Octave review

[Jaroslav Hajek]

On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 9:55 PM, Daniel J Sebald <address@hidden> wrote:
> Jaroslav Hajek wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Daniel J Sebald <address@hidden>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> True, it's a touted Matlab feature, but as I see it Simulink provides
>>>>> no
>>>>> extra functionality to the core of Matlab and adds little to what makes
>>>>> the
>>>>> language as useful as it is.  Octave/Matlab's benefit is that of any
>>>>> computer language: efficient processing and analysis.  Simulink adds
>>>>> little
>>>>> to that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There seem to be many who disagree with you and use Matlab almost
>>>> exclusively for Simulink. We also get more or less regular requests in
>>>> the help mailing list if Octave has anything like Simulink.
>>>
>>> I didn't say that.  I said Simulink adds little to efficiency and
>>> analysis.
>>> It enshrouds Matlab with a layer of user interface that in some cases can
>>> be useful for a specific application.  I've not found Simulink too useful
>>> as
>>> far as my analytic pursuits.  (Note the reference I gave last time to
>>> Stephenson's "In the beginning... was the command line.")
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> One other thing about the review is that it tends to vilify Mathworks
>>>>> near
>>>>> the end.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's intentional. It's a review, it's subjective, it's my voice, and
>>>> I don't like the Mathworks. I don't approve of their business
>>>> practices, I don't think that it's ok to be evil as long as you're
>>>> making a profit, and I do not believe apologists who say, "you see, if
>>>> they didn't do all the evil things they do, they wouldn't be making
>>>> money."
>>>
>>> All the evil things they do may be more perception than reality.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Rather, Octave puts a resource at the disposal of users
>>>>> who can't afford otherwise, i.e., one doesn't have to buy their way
>>>>> into
>>>>> a
>>>>> scientific research community.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think jwe has been pretty clear in several instances that he doesn't
>>>> see Octave as charity for those who can't pay for Matlab. He
>>>> emphasises the freedom of the software, that it can be distributed and
>>>> analysed without restriction except that it's forbidden to forbid. He
>>>> also expects to receive code for the code he's made, and he frequently
>>>> invites users to contribute to the code. Not charity. He wants
>>>> something back: code, contribution, involvement.
>>>
>>> Hence the "bazaar-like" development that has been there since before
>>> transfer to Mercurial.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On a more personal note from myself, those who can't pay for Matlab
>>>> already aren't doing so, but use it anyways. Ask Jaroslav Hájek, ask
>>>> me, ask any user in the mailing list who isn't from the US or Western
>>>> Europe (and possibly a few other places), is software around them
>>>> copied with blithe disregard for copyright? Ask the Swedes and The
>>>> Pirate Bay:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4510366/Mathworks.Matlab.R2008b.UNIX.DVD.ISO-TBE
>>>>
>>>> I frequently see dwellers of the US or Western Europe acting as if
>>>> copyright infringement were impossible, or invisible, or immoral, but
>>>> it is the norm everywhere except in the US or Western Europe. It is
>>>> not always overt like with TPB, but it exists everywhere in the world,
>>>> to various degrees. It is also very widespread in the same countries
>>>> where these beliefs about copyright come from, but it is of course
>>>> much less overt, and much more socially stigmatised.
>>>
>>> I'm not disagreeing that that is the case; quite aware of it.  However,
>>> this
>>> point is a red herring as regards your original point.  Anyway,
>>> copyrights
>>> are a structured model of business.  These rules date back a long way and
>>> often were implemented to protect the intellectual property of small
>>> business owners.
>>
>>
>> Not in Czechia, for instance. Here, they basically date back roughly
>> to the Velvet Revolution or a while after. And they started to be
>> enforced primarily to protect the IP of western companies expanding
>> here, or equivalently, to hold back the small Czech businesses from
>> catching up too easily with the entering big players. I don't want to
>> speculate whether this was the reason, but this was the effect. I
>> think this was sort of Jordi's point. As a consequence, there's little
>> natural respect for copyright in our country, it's mostly enforced
>> respect.
>
> I said I'm aware of that point, but how does this matter on the business
> practices of a company that appears to be acting within laws?

I personally have pretty neutral feelings towards MathWorks. I just
wanted to point out that the arguments you presented for support
copyright laws may not apply well everywhere.

> I understand
> the forces and influence of big government, big corporations, imperialism,
> etc.  If less industrialized companies want to "catch up", as they should,
> then their governments should write their laws to encourage that (have some
> respect for the natural environment, of course) rather than thwart it.

Nah, I don't think it's that easy. We can't just make copyright void
by law, for example - we'd be facing penalties from everywhere. You
have to play by the rules, or risk isolation... but to avoid getting
OT, I'd just conclude that copyright and IP in general may not seem as
natural outside the countries of their origin, and that's also why
software piracy is hardly considered criminal in many such countries.

I think you made a good point in that Octave makes it possible to
enter the world of scientific computing without the need to pay in
advance for the privilege (or use pirate copies). But the primary
point is that Octave, as free software, grants everyone the  freedom
to study, understand and modify - these are essential for innovation.
Octave encourages everyone to improve it, while Matlab's EULA in fact
deems it a possibly criminal act if you create an improvement of one
of its functions, for instance.
That's why Octave actually plays a different league than Matlab; even
if it were worse in all functional aspects (which it is far from), it
would still be more free.

-- 
RNDr. Jaroslav Hajek
computing expert
Aeronautical Research and Test Institute (VZLU)
Prague, Czech Republic
url: www.highegg.matfyz.cz