Re: sidebar in docbook

[Aharon Robbins]

Hi Karl, Texinfo gurus.

[ All - please cc me on replies - I'm not on texinfo-devel... ]

> Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 00:10:46 GMT
> From: address@hidden (Karl Berry)
> To: address@hidden
> Cc: address@hidden
> Subject: sidebar in docbook
>
> Hi Patrice (et al.),
>
> Arnold proposed an @sidebar environment in Texinfo, primarily so that he
> can get <sidebar><title>Some Title</title>blah blah</sidebar> in Docbook.

Not just. See below.

> For other output formats, he proposed that the output would be like this:
>
>     @cartouche
>     @center @b{Some Title}
>     blah blah
>     @end cartouche
>
> Sadly, I have to say I don't like it.  My problem is simply that
> @cartouche @center is not what people actually expect to see as a
> "sidebar", so it seems rather a lie;

Why do you say that?  I'm thinking about how sidebars look in an O'Reilly
book, where it's a block of text with a box around it the full width of
the page, and it has a centered title.  (Also, as a technical detail,
I *believe* that sidebars can float to the top of the next page if
needed.)

So, when I do the @cartouche/@center dance, the PDF looks fairly close
to what O'Reilly produces.  (The float thing would have to be handled
and also maybe leaving a little white space before and after if there's
room on the page, but that's <sic>technical details</sic>. :-)

I'm guessing you have a different mental image of what a sidebar looks
like?  Can you explain it?

> it would be hard to document
> coherently and truthfully.  And I can't see a feasible/desirable way to
> implement a real sidebar in HTML or Info or TeX.

For TeX, I think what I've described is close enough. For HTML, I'd
have to take a look at how O'Reilly renders their sidebars online.
However, I'm a simple guy and would be happy with something like

        <H4>Sidebar: USER-SUPPLIED-TITLE-HERE</H4>
        Blah blah blah.

Something similar for Info, too.

(I will admit that my current prejudices are that what matters, in order,
are: TeX, Docbook, HTML, and Info.  I'm certain that you have a different
order. Even I could argue for swapping the order of the middle two. :-)

> That's just not how our output is constructed (being single-column and
> all), and we don't want to change the entire Texinfo world merely to
> suddenly allow sidebars.

Again - I think we have different mental models, and single column is
perfectly fine with me.

> Nevertheless, even if sidebars can't be implemented in general,

I think they can be: we just have to agree on what we're talking about. :-)

Thanks!

Arnold