Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib?

[Bob Rogers]

   From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>
   Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2023 21:26:00 +0000

   Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

   >> From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>
   >> Cc: João Távora <joaotavora@gmail.com>,
   >>  adam@alphapapa.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org,  stefankangas@gmail.com
   >> Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2023 08:55:54 +0000
   >> 
   >> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
   >> 
   >> > It might be ok to add some keyword arguments to `sort', which
   >> > are more unusual and complex to use, but not to simple
   >> > constructs like `pushnew'.  This is Emacs Lisp, not Common Lisp.
   >> 
   >> What does that last sentence mean?
   >
   > . . .

   . . .

   >> what constitutes "Emacs Lisp"?  It would seem peculiar if it were
   >> to be defined by the arbitrary decisions of the past, constrained
   >> by the contingent circumstances of the time.
   >
   > Those "arbitrary decisions" are what got us to where we are now, 40
   > years later.  So some respect for those "arbitrary decisions" is due,
   > I think.

   No disrespect meant, but I am not sure we are thinking of the same
   things.  An "arbitrary decision" usually doesn't matter much, like
   calling a function rplacd or setcdr.  If a decision got us to where we
   are now, I would say it wasn't that arbitrary, but a good one?

I think we are not really talking about arbitrary decisions here, but
about language style decisions, which may seem arbitrary (especially if
you disagree with the style of the resulting language!) but do matter to
the consistency and coherence of the resulting language.  And, although
my experience only goes back to Emacs 18, I think the original Emacs
Lisp had a definite style that set it apart from other Lisp dialects.
But that was a long time ago, and Emacs Lisp has grown enormously (as
someone else pointed out early in the original thread) to support the
enormous growth in Emacs, so that original style is now much harder to
see.  (Indeed, I notice it mostly when updating my old code.)

   So, Richard, I see that you are fighting to preserve something real
and important -- your vision of Emacs Lisp as a coherent language -- and
I believe that may be your prerogative as its creator.  But I also
believe you may be a decade or two too late.

                                        -- Bob Rogers
                                           http://www.rgrjr.com/