Re: GNUstep is not the problem [was: install hell]

[Travis Griggs]

Dennis Leeuw wrote:
> Hi Travis and others,
>
> It's a pitty that GNUstep gets blamed for user ignorance. I am growing 
> tired of the "blame GNUstep" attitude. Maybe it is not fair to write 
> this into a reply to your e-mail, and therefor I apologise. I just want 
> this of my chest. So don't take this too personal.

Not a problem at all. I was mostly venting. No reason you shouldn't be allowed 
the same. :)
> I have build GNUstep numerous of times to be able to write the GNUstep 
> Build Guide (documents.made-it.com). And yes I have run into troubles, 
> when doing things different then the default way. But that's is NOT a 
> GNUstep problem, that doesn't make GNUstep a real pain. I have build 
> GNOME when it was pre-1.0.0 and even when it was 1.0.0 it was a pain to 
> build. Compared to that GNUstep even in it's 0.8.x carnation is a breeze 
> (1.7.x for make/base).

This is fair enough. The conclusion would be that my complaint is that the 
"default" way is not very robust or flexible.

> The fact that you source the GNUstep.sh file in the wrong location, or 
> not all. is not a GNUstep problem, but a lack of knowledge, don't blame 
> GNUstep for that. The fact that you mention "Why can't GNUstep just put 
> libraries where the rest of the system puts them?" indicates that you 
> don't know how GNUstep works and what it is. I don't blame you for that, 
> but to put the blame on GNUstep is not fair.

Do you blame it on lack of high level/big picture/metaphor document describing the vision 
and general architecture of the GNUstep environment? Isn't that "part" of 
GNUstep though?

> GNUstep is a little community with a small number of developers working 
> VERY hard on it. Don't forget that this is all done in private time. 
> People work on this for fun.

You are correct. It is easy (and one feels often imperative) to "offer 
feedback" (i.e. complain). Harder to remember to take the time to thank people and 
laud the various cool things. I _do_ appreciate all the hard work that the small 
community does. I've been especially grateful to those in the irc channel that answer my 
relentless stream of questions. They've been very patient and helpful.

I think much of my frustration comes being somewhat out of phase with the end goals 
or vision of the GNUstep project (I'm not sure this is really the case; but I've 
begun to suspect it). You see, I just want to write tools. I'm using KDE and Debian 
Linux. I'm going to continue to do so for a while. I have nothing against the 
Next/After/Open/GNUstep desktop environment, it's just not what I'm doing right now. 
But I do want a good object oriented base language I can easily intermix with a lot 
of our C code. I think we are all agreed that Objective-C is great here. So we all 
agree on that. And writing/making large projects is a pain with using just raw 
Makefiles, so I think we're agreed that having a tool like GNUstep-make is a great 
thing. And we all know that an object oriented language, but without a good class 
library, is not nearly as powerful. So gnustep-base becomes attractive. After that I 
think my goals begin to diverge. You see, I don't care so much about the 
"standard
"ness of the over-the-years evolved open step base library. I just want a good strong library for writing 
normal Linux CLI tools. I love Macs/Apple, but in this case, I just don't care how "compatible" it is 
with them. I'm not interested (in fact, I'm annoyed by) a GNUstep "view" of the operating system. I had 
hoped that I could use these GNUstep components (base and make) and have mutual benefit between me and the 
project. We do share similiar goals to begin with. I find myself wishing that GNUstep-make were a completely 
separate component. It could/can be used to build GNUstep vision projects, but it can just be used as high-level 
project make engine. In such a case, there would be a single page thingie giving a 10000 foot, "this is how 
the thing basically works, and these are the knobs you turn to change the results." The same kind of thing 
for GNUstep-base library.

> What I would like to ask is another attitude towards problems people 
> encounter. Starting an e-mail with "install hell" and "Installing 
> GNUstep components is a real pain" is not gonna help. It might frustrate 
> people devoting their spare time building, in my humble opinion, the 
> best system around to work on GNUstep. It's not nice to everytime have 
> to defend yourself, to prove people wrong in their ideas that GNUstep is 
> the problem.
> If you have a problem share it, ask for help without judging prematurely.
>
> Sorry for this lengthy note. Just wanted to share this feeling.
>
> Happy Stepping,
>
> Dennis Leeuw



--
Travis Griggs
Key Technology
One Man's Pink Plane is Another Man's Blue Plane