Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.

[David Kastrup]

Richard Riley <address@hidden> writes:

> Yavor Doganov <address@hidden> writes:
>
>> Chong Yidong wrote:
>>> Every graphical user interface created in the last X years puts the
>>> scroll bar on the right.
>>
>> Not true -- on GNUstep it is by default on the left (although it can
>> be controlled via the NSScrollViewInterfaceStyle user default which
>> was implemented at least 3-4 years ago).
>
> GnuStep is the benchmark? Sheesh ...

Anything is the benchmark if a statement about "Every graphical user
interface" is made.

>> David Kastrup wrote:
>>> But the scrollbar is on the left for a reason: _if_ you use the
>>> mouse for editing, you'll use it more often than not on the left
>>> (until Eli's work gets merged).  And the larger the windows are made
>>> horizontally, the more of a nuisance it is to move the mouse.
>>
>> This makes sense to me.  I suspect that's one of the reasons why NeXT
>> made such decision.
>
> It makes no sense to me.

Then you should reread it until it does.  You'll be better equipped to
weigh the relative advantages when you understand your opponents'
position.

> Most people I watch, and myself, position the mouse on the right hand
> side of something in which we freetype. The only time I would use a
> mouse in emacs would be to hilite a url maybe or to move the scroll
> bar and it makes far more sense for that to be on the right.

Are URLs more often than not on the right?  Does your text move only to
the right?

As I already explained: with the variable-height scrolling control of
Athena-style scrollbars (by the way: for Xaw applications like xterm,
xman, xmessage, the default is consistently on the left), it is
important to have the scrollbar close to the text in order to do aimed
scrolling.  It is very easy with this scrollbar type, of which the
toolkit-less is one, to move the beginning of a function to the top of
the screen with a single click without losing cursor position.

> For me the real reason is this : I read and write left to write. I dont
> want a chunk of the left hand side of my screen taken by a control I
> rarely use. It seems so obvious that I kind of wonder if I am losing the
> plot here and missing something so terribly obvious.

Have you disabled all window decorations as well?  And the gutter?

And anyway, the scrollbar takes the same amount of space whether left or
right.

> But trawling back through the thread all I see to counter this and
> obvious consistency benefits

There is none.  There is a familiarity benefit.  We don't give them
priority over usability, or we would not be using Emacs in the first
place.

> is that GnuStep does it on the left (with dus respect almost nothing
> uses GnuStep) and that it minimises mouse movement in an application
> that is primarily keyboard driven and then ONLY if the mouse is on the
> left to start with. I'm at a loss to see how those "for the left"
> think it any way balances out.

If there is nothing substantial on the other end of the scale...

> Still, clearly there are a core element who feel the left is somehow
> the place and I suspect the decision is made. There's probably not
> more to add - and thanks for the discussion. Emacs is a wonderful
> product.

I think you overlook that a maintainer already did that change without
even discussing it.  That's what prompted this thread.  So if there is
any "decision" being made, it would be according to your personal
preferences.

-- 
David Kastrup