Re: [GNU-linux-libre] 10 minutes, and uzbl browser became usable

[Jean Louis]

Dear Zlatan,


On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 02:57:07PM +0100, Zlatan Todoric wrote:
> 
> > > When software is distributed to a mechanic, telling him indirectly,
> > > that he is dumb, and he shall use click/pray to search Google and
> > > watch videos, and nothing more, this is leading him nowhere.
> > just wanted to say I am completely with you on the position of not
> > treating users as dumb. there was a lecture here in Goteborg at FSCONS
> > by Elinor Carmi which I really enjoyed and, while mostly focusing on
> > the human-machine interaction of "user operators". She started from
> > stories about the early Bell telephone network days, to nowadays
> > content management on social media. While tangential to her speech,
> > she still articulated well a scenario touching this issue, of treating
> > users as dumb and how that is a very bad idea for everyone.
> 
> The only one treating users dumb here is you and your pal. Just because
> someone doesn't use and doesn't understand software the way your "enlighten"
> mind does, doesn't make them dumb.

I am sorry for that. I was meaning "spectator" versus "creator". User
versus programmer.

I know well before 30 years, that each computer buyer, was in the same
time creator. They bought Spectrum, Commodore, Atari, Amiga, and even
PC, and most of times, they were faced with a programming
prompt. Inside of the PCs at that time, the BASIC was a built in
option in some computers. Instead of booting OS, one could simply
choose to boot into BASIC. From there on, one could load programs (not
sure how), or write small programs, and run them.

Children of 10 years were starting in programming. What they are doing
now? Throwing some ice cubes into the cracks of plumber in Android
games.

12 years - 14 years old, were making computer games. I am not
forgetting the time. It was hype and opportunity that with the
purchase of a computer, one also gets the opportunity to create.

I have met fathers, youth, teachers, and pupils of those teachers, and
all they were programming.

In the companies, I have seen dedicated staff that had assignments to
simply write necessary programs. One small company of 20 people, and
they were making all the necessary software for
themselves. Programming languages were available. Internet was
not. Utilizing sharing in some countries was not an option. One had to
make the programs.

That spirit has been invalidated by corporations selling their
software for usage, for making the users spectators.

The approach of selling free software by those large corporations is
the same approach as selling proprietary software. They avoid telling
about GNU, free software, they don't teach them about it. They don't
give them opportunity to learn, unless the licenses are found or well
studied, but that is not teaching, that is discovery by oneself.

The free system distributions shall not use the momentum and drive
that was first invented by larger corporation to somehow subjugate
users into being only spectators and product users. I know it is one
way of making money, but there are many other ways of making moneys.

> I fairly believe that majority of Nobel Prize winners don't use
> GNU/Linux, never heard about Devuan or uzbl and even if you would
> explain them - they would still use what they are using now.

Look, I am using GNU since 1999. And I have converted many people into
using GNU software. Many of my friends, and then by doing seminars in
Germany. The conversion is very simple, once the person has reviewed
all the facts of free software. I have not seen those problems, even I
never tried to demonstrate it to a Nobel Prize winner.

I was passing there by the Norwegian Nobel Institute in Oslo, but was
not interested to come there and search for some of them... :-) few
other people of less intelligence did convert to GNU/Linux, I guess
forever, did not check it out lately.

> Sorry to inform you that even if majority don't care about Freedom,
> privacy, security at level you do, it still doesn't make them dumb
> and you're not in position to judge them - many still live happily,
> contribute to the world and know what are they doing even though
> they are not "educated users as you would like them to be".

You have got wrong impression, I am not invalidating users, I am
critizing software and operating system distributors, who keep the
users as spectators, not teaching them about free software, and not
giving them opportunities to create.

And discussion was started by your example with the mechanic. I guess
hat a mechanic could have good utilization of simple programming.

With 17 years, a farmer was on one of my courses, at that time, we
were teaching BASIC and LOGO, he was typing very strangely, like with
finger, coming from high down to the keys, like in a wave motion, we
were all laughing about it. But oh gosh, he could program, he has
learned it well. I just think and have personal experience, that each
person who is literate, basically who has a computer, has also all the
necesary requirements to learn about computing, and to create on that
computer.

> I highly recommend you don't put your nose into users decision but rather
> listen to their needs and if you're able create Free software for their
> exact need without judging them or preaching to them how they don't know
> what is best for them and that they should listen to your suggestions -
> power to you. Otherwise it is insulting to see how you two try to enforce
> that you're right and I for one, could care every mail less and
> less.

>From my position of sitting here, and discussing, I am in doubt that I
am enforcing anything.

The users decisions that you mentioned, are not "their"
decisions. Those are decisions by the large corporations that were
selling in bulk the software to them. Users have been shaped by the
wishes and ideals of large corporations, and they are being shaped
even more now and in the future, unless we do something.

You see it as "listening to their decisions", and I see it as
"listening to corporate decisions". You are listening to corporate
decisions if you are basing your system on that what your majority of
users who used proprietary software are used to. They are switching
from Windows operating system to PureOS. They are used to certain
browsers, certain manner of thinking, you are trying to accommodate
it, and "go with the flow".

That is not necessarily bad, it is also not a merit of teaching. If
teacher would always do what pupils want and wish, they would never
learn anything.

That is why the *teching* point for Free System Distributions is of
outmost importance.

> > in Devuan we are definitely witnessing this too. Many users fleeing
> > out from the systemd imposition in Debian are offended by the way they
> > are treated as stupid.
> 
> Sorry to say, but Devuan anti-Free software attack against another Free
> software projects didn't accomplish anything. Debian is the giant bastion of
> Free software engineering and high quality product while Devuan is IMHO just
> a joke (https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/ -> reading first few lines is
> already enough to not take it seriously).

I really don't know about Devuan, however, you are developer of PureOS
on http://puri.sm/pureos -- and if I compare PureOS website to the
page at https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork -- I see there much more
profound thoughts, ideas, plans, reasons, whatever, than on the
PureOS.

I guess software is free to use and promote it, and sooner or later
somebody is going to take PureOS and make their own version. That is
the freedom that was given and that shall be used, even if sometimes
such forks of software packages need not be common sense. Devuan is
different, they promote a system with more liberty for some users. 

On the first page, they promote the 4 freedoms. Sadly on the PureOS
first page, there is not even a link to GNU website, the only
mentioning of GNU is in relation of "Debian GNU/Linux". You should
mention something of ideas of free software, link to GNU or explain
about the software freedoms.

I hope that PureOS make some changes, and becomes the first
commercially sponsored, and endorsed, free system distribution.

Jean Louis