Re: forcing hshift

[David Raleigh Arnold]

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 06:59:32 Mats Bengtsson wrote:
> > On Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:13:45 Rune Zedeler wrote:
> > > David Raleigh Arnold wrote:
> > > 
> > > > With a 5/4 tuplet, center point of the 3rd and 4th notes should
> > > > be exactly the same as the center point of the 4th and 5th notes
> > > > in the 7/4 tuplet.
> > > 
> > > What?!
> > > No, they don't occur at the same time, and hence they should not
> be
> > > aligned.
> > 
> > Their centers ought to be aligned, even though there is no note
> there,
> > because in such a case it is essential to be able to visually divide
> > the measure in half.  They have the same center, exactly midway
> > as I described.
> > A note dividing the 3rd note of a quintuplet is at exactly the
> > same time as a note dividing the 4th note of a septuplet.
> 
> Since we are dealing with fine details here, you have to be 
> very precise in your description. I agree that the center of
> the duration of the notes is at the same time, but since the
> note head position is determined by the start of the note, 
> they should not be exactly aligned.

I did not say that a notehead should be aligned, I said that the
*midpoint* should be aligned, no matter what happens
to the rest of the tuplets.

     midpoint
        V
*  * *     *    *     | O
* * * *   *   *     * | O

Playing a septuplet and a quintuplet at the same time
would be nasty enough, but without being able to
see where the middle is it would be even harder to
turn it into reality.
> 
> I'm sorry to say, but just as Rune I don't understand exactly
> what you request. If you can clearly formulate some general 
> principles that would (in your opinion) improve the layout,

It's not easy, is it?  But try this.  There has to be a way.
This wheel has already been invented many times.  I
think the problem is finding the middle of the measure
or group.

As you know, it is customary to tie over the 3rd beat
in 4/4 time *if* there are 8ths:

e8 e e e ~ e e e e |

rather than:

e8 e e e4 e8 e e |

It offends the eye to have difficulty locating the
center of the measure.  Of course this presents
no difficulty because it is so simple:

|  |    |  |
*  o    *  |

but you do not expect any of these measures:

  midpoint
     V
|    |  |  |
o    *  *  |

   midpoint
      V
|  |  |    |
*  *  o    |

to have different lengths.

If they were simultaneous, they would have to be
lined up--no problem, you have middle beat.

|     |  |  |
o     *  *  |
            |
|  |  |     |
*  *  o     |
            |
|  |     |  |
*  o     *  |

Here it gets a little less pretty but
there is a note in the middle of the
measure, so neither looks too bad.

      V
|  |  |    |
*  *  o    |
           |
|  |    |  |
*  o    *  |

     V
|    |  |  |
o    *  *  |
           |
|  |    |  |
*  o    *  |

but 3/4, or 3 in general, or any odd numbered
meter or tuplet presents no note in the middle to line
up on.  So this:

|    |   |
o    *   |
         |
|   |    |
*   o    |

looks nasty because you see both 2nd and
3rd beats as the center because they are
close to each other and close to the center,
but the center is not either nor even a beat.  This:

  midpoint
      V
1   2   3
|       |  |
o       *  |
           |
|   |      |
*   o      |

makes it easy to see where the midpoint is
and to see that no note is played
at that time, and to not have visual
confusion finding the beats.  It's not
what the reader knows, it's how he sees.

So the distance from 2 to 3 should be the
same as the distance from 1 to 2 to avoid
*visual* ambiguity.

  midpoint
      V
1   2   3
|       |   |
o       *   |
            |
|   |       |
*   o       |
o.    o.    |
|     |

I haven't tried invisible dotted notes or
rests because I didn't want to have to 
figure out how to hide the damn dot, but I
hope the tendency of the dotted halves
to be the same length would bend the
measure into decent shape.  If that works,
it would suggest a very robust solution.
Space the measure as if there
were two actual notes dividing it in half.

If that doesn't get it done, then the
distance between the 2nd and 3rd beats
has to be such that if there were an
actual note of such time value on the second
beat it would space 3 nicely.

<{d4  <d2 r4>}
{d'2  d'4]>

And believe it or not the above actually worked
last time I tried it, but there were dire
warnings.


This is not a new problem.  It has been solved
hundreds of times.  There is a way.  

------------------------------------------------------------
Information is not knowledge.           Belief is not truth.
Indoctrination is not teaching.   Tradition is not evidence.
         David Raleigh Arnold   address@hidden