[Targnum-translating] some important points and bsd.he.html editor comments

[the duke]

ZMan ZMan wrote:

> the duke wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > Attached are the editor comments and the edited document.
> > Your former two documents were already sent for updating, I'll check 
> > whet's going on there while sending this one too.
> >
> > What will be your next document?
> >
> > By the way, since I see you like editing the documents I send you, 
> > maybe you'd like to become an editor, in addition to being a translator.
> > There are many documents that need editing (see the TarGNUm page: 
> > targnum.gnu.org.il).
> >
> > Thanx for the translation!
> >
> > salut!
> >      the duke 
>
>
> Hola
>
> Thanks for the generous offer. :)
> but i don't.want to become a translator, as i don't qualify : i tend 
> to overlook, as you've already seen, the not-to-be-overlooked parts of 
> the text.

I wouldn't worry about that. anyone who can read a document in a 
criticizing way is a good editor.
So don't let qualification stop you. If you want to edit but think 
you're unqualified, just let me know what document you want, I'll do a 
revision of the editing anyway (just as I would like people to revise my 
editing).
If you don't want to edit just because you don't want to, well, that's 
bummer for me :)

> i hope that my fixes to your fixes of my work - don't be seen as 
> rudeness.

No, it is most welcome, and needed for better translations.
I would be happy if you could revise more document I edited (like the 
main page, which I edited _and_ translated, which is against all 
standards. I would prefer someone else to edit it so any errors I made 
will be fixed), and send me the comments.
when I'll fix the intial-announcement.he.html (went online, but I 
mislinked it from the philosophy page) I'll send it to you for a final 
revision.

> i indeed use mozilla compose to make/edit html.

so just switch to the "retain original source formatting" mode. it'll 
solve the formatting problem.

> i don't like carmel, please don't send me there - they have many 
> inaccuracies (i've actually pointed them with a one !) - and 
> translations that just do NOT fit - they are just  people like me and 
> you, and thanks for asking, but i prefer to make mistakes by myself, 
> and don't get other's help with that... ;->

they are just people like you and me, but so are the GNU people, and the 
government, and the judges, and the police. but we let jusdges decide 
people's future, because they just enforce the law,and we let the police 
give us reports, since that's the way to stop people from making 
felonies, and we let the government tell us how to behave in this 
country, since we don't want to live in an anarchy, and according to the 
israeli decisions, they are the authority for these things. we may not 
agree with them, we may not like them, but it doesn't mean we won't obey 
to the law, and won't recognize them as an authority. we'll just try to 
affect them, or replace them with someone better.

The same goes for TarGNUm and Carmel. Carmel is not an authority because 
the people who created it are supere humans. It is an authority because 
some groups agreed they will be the authority. and TarGNUm is one of 
these groups.
They have several advantages:
   1) they are dealing _only_ with the word list, thus developing 
better tools and resources for the task of collecting them.
   2) they are recognized by several translation groups, giving them a 
strong potential to become a standard among the translators.
   3) they are very open for discussion and suggestion, making them 
very easy for influence when certain translations seem inappropriate.
   4) they lack the beurocracy which exists in large institutions, like 
the hebrew language academy. so they get updated quickly, and are very 
adjusted to the real situation and the popular language.

That last advantage is very important: we could use the hebrew academy 
as our official source for translations, but it takes them years to 
decide over a certain translation. By the time they will put the word 
into their list, not necessarily with our suggested translation, we will 
have the whole GNU site translated (and probably some other sites too).

But if we will use Carmel, in which I, as a group coordinator, can add a 
word in about 10 seconds, or comment on someone else's translation, or 
if I am unsure of the translation I can ask or opinions on their mailing 
list, we will have an updated translation for every word we need, 
whenever we need it.

Not only that, but we can also be sure that other project that translate 
program interfaces and specific documentation will use the same 
translation, which will make the whole system documentation consistent 
and easy to understand.

If we still want to make sure we use standard hebrew translations, 
Carmel can serve as the representative of it's members in the academy's 
discussions, giving it much more power than several groups offering 
tranlsations, which mostly has nothing with the other groups suggestions.
and so we make sure our de-facto standard will have influence over the 
oficial standard.

The price, like in every pluralistic group, is that our suggestions will 
not always be accepted. that's a very small price, since our suggestions 
are not always better just because they are ours. and if they are based 
on a logical explanation (thus better), they have a high probability to 
become the official translation. if someone will offer a better 
translation, well, we profit again.

I too don't like all of their translations. but on the other hand, I 
never liked "דואל' for email, but it has become a standard word which I 
can't ignore, and I despise "יע"מ" for CPU, but if all of the other 
groups will use it, I should use it too. the translation is not for me, 
it is for the readers, and they shouldn't become confused when they read 
non-standard translations, just like I wouldn't like to read a  
computers related arcticle in the newspaper which uses self made 
translations for terms which I used to see in some other way.

And a last point for this explanation: yes, we can throw away the 
standard when we don't like it, and use our own translations. But when 
we don't respect the standard, we cannot expact and ask others to 
respect it when _we_ set it. That's the reason standards exist, and the 
Carmel standard is convenient enough for us to serve as the wordlist 
standard.

Except for that, you saw the replies to your comment on Carmel. they 
were very well written and explained. so whether your comment will be 
accepted or not, all the reasons will be given for why the translation 
selected is the best translation. and so you helped making Carmel a 
better word list. and we profit again :)

> i want to make this crystal-clear : the only reason i've reordered the 
> [ Language Links ] after you've told me not to, lays at the original 
> document's source, as a comment, which tells this <Quote> Please keep 
> this list alphabetical </Quote>
> i think we indeed should follow the creator's request from translators...

Ok, that's an interesting point.
yet, according to my suggestion the order is maintained. the english 
order, that is. from that point of view you did messed to alphabetic order.
Looking from a wider perspective, if we _will_ reorder the language 
links according to the hebrew alphabet, we will probably want in some 
point to offer the GNU guys to make the language-specific-ordering a 
standard among translations, so people who know french and hebrew, for 
example, won't get confused with quickly finding their link. but then 
the japanese group and chinese groups (both of them) will have a 
problem, since japanese has only partly official alphabetical order, and 
the chinese people have several ways to organize their sign order. and 
these are only the languages I know good enough to point a problem.

On the other hand, the native-characters solution seems logical, and 
would not create problems, since the only way to organize the links is 
according to a pre-set standard. by default - the english order. as 
said, by leaving the words in the english order we prepare ourselves for 
this standard.

if you think my explanation doesn't give a setisfying answer, you are 
most welcome to reopen the discussion on the 
address@hidden list. (found on the TarGNUm savannah 
page. I probably didn't tell you yet about the TarGNUm project page on 
savannah.gnu.org. the needed details will be sent to you on saturday 
with the TarGNUm status report sent to all TarGNUm members. you can take 
a look at it in the meanwhile: https://savannah.gnu.org/projects/targnum/)

Discussion like this one, or any other opinion about any of the TarGNUm 
standards or decisions, pro or con, are important for optimal 
development of the project, and are strongly encouraged. Feel free to 
comment or open a public discussion on any topic you see suitable.

The more faults we find, the more faults we can fix.

> my next doc. will probably be : *Copyleft: Pragmatic Idealism 
> (/philosophy/pragmatic.html)

It's yours.

On any case it is important to note that when you disagree with a 
standard, the right way to hadle the problem is to contact me, or the 
mailing list, and bring up the problem so it will be discussed and 
handled. But even then you should still use the standard, untill a new 
one is set. Just like you should obey the law, even if you don't like 
it. The good thing about TarGNUm standards, is that you don't need the 
kenneset to change them :)
When and if the standard will be changed, the editors will make sure the 
translation is fixed (and if they aren't aware, you can always remind 
them they should fix the certain page). if you really hate the standard 
so that you totally refuse to use it, you can postpone the translation 
or sending of the page till the standard will be changed, and choose a 
different page in the meanwhile. but take into account that by then 
everyone will use the standard, so you might as well send it, and ask to 
fix it when the standard changes.

Hope I made everything clear.
If you have any more comments/questions, that's what coordinators are 
for (among the rest :))

salut!
     the duke