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On 6/15/11 8:39 AM, bruys . wrote:
On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 11:40 PM, Phil
Holmes <address@hidden>
wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Xavier Scheuer" <address@hidden>
To: "Marc Mouries" <address@hidden>
Cc: "lilypond-user" <address@hidden>
Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2011 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: why does lily prints both a natural and sharp
sign?
On 11 June 2011 14:57, Marc Mouries <address@hidden> wrote:
thanks for the info.
This is standard typesetting rules.
I have several copies of Debussy clair de lune in D flat
and I have never
seen a natural sign before the g sharp
Here is an example on IMSLP:
http://imslp.org/wiki/Suite_Bergamasque_%28Debussy%2C_Claude%29#Clair_de_lune_.28No.3.29_2
Is there a place online where these rules can be looked
up?
I do not know it is "standard typesetting rules" that
accidentals _at
the key signature_ implies extra naturals, though.
Some people have valuable (books) references, such as Ted
Ross or
Gardner Read, maybe they could check the "rules"
concerning key
signature and extra naturals.
I am not aware of (free) online version of music
typesetting rules
(conventions), but again, maybe other users have advice.
I've looked at Ted Ross, Kurt Stone, Gardner Read and Elaine
Gould and can't find any explicit mention of this. The
closest I can find is page 126 of my Gardner Read, where he
shows the double-flat to flat transition as requiring a
natural-flat sign to emphasise that it's a single flat. You
could argue that a sharp on a note which would normally be
flat should have the same natural-sharp notation, to emphasise
that you're not sharpening the note (to natural) but making it
a sharp.
--
Phil Holmes
For completeness, I feel I should mention that this issue is
discussed with relation to double accidentals in Elaine Gould (p.
81, "Cancelling accidentals").
It is also mentioned in the Wikipedia article titled "Accidental":
Note that in a few cases the
accidental might change the note by more than a semitone:
for example, if a G sharp is followed in the same measure by a G
flat, the flat sign on the latter note means it will be two
semitones lower than if no accidental were present. Thus, the
effect of the accidental has to be understood in relation to the
"natural" meaning of the note's staff position.
For the sake of clarity, some composers put a natural in front
of the accidental. Thus, if in this example the composer
actually wanted the note a semitone lower than G-natural, he
might put first a natural sign to cancel the previous G-sharp,
then the flat. However, under most contexts, an F-sharp could be
used instead.
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.14/Documentation/notation/displaying-pitches#automatic-accidentals
under the "modern" style, it would be clearer if the sentence "The
modern rule
prints the same accidentals as default, with
two exceptions..." were amended to "Other than this, the modern
rule
prints the same accidentals as default, with
two further exceptions...", or otherwise rewritten, as the
sentence before it has been added explaining that this style also
prints fewer natural signs.
Regards,
Bruys
Hello,
IMO, LilyPond's practice of canceling a flat before a sharp is
incorrect. I've attached an example from the Schumann Symphonic
Etudes Op. 13 in the Clara Schumann edition (I couldn't find an
exact date, but it must be 1880s or somewhat earlier) where the D
sharp in the second measure is not preceded by a natural despite the
D flat in the key signature. In this situation, the default in
Lilypond would be to have both a natural and a sharp.
This isn't the same case as canceling a double-sharp before a sharp,
mentioned in Read and elsewhere. I've attached another example from
the same edition where the F sharp has a natural before it to cancel
the F double-sharp.
So I think that the extra natural should only apply to cases where a
double-sharp is canceled by a single sharp, or where a double flat
is canceled by a single flat. It's awkward and unnecessary when
moving from flats to sharps.
AFAIK it isn't easy to replicate that behavior with Lilypond
currently.
Edward
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