[Pan-users] Re: posting problem

[Duncan]

Bruce Bowler <address@hidden> posted
address@hidden, excerpted below, on  Tue, 16 Jan 2007 13:41:46
+0000:

>> Correct.  Select the profile and you are selecting the server you post
>> thru while using that profile.  If you select a profile set to use a
>> server that doesn't have the group (or that does but doesn't allow you
>> to post), well, you get the error you'd likely expect, if you thought
>> about it a bit.
> 
> Correct and not correct.  I have thought about it a bit and while it's
> nice to be able to have a split personality, it shouldn't be a
> *requirement* if you use more than one news server.

Let me apologize as that came off a bit (OK, more than a bit =8^( )
uppity. That wasn't my intention, as I'm here to help, and uppity isn't
usually all that constructive or helpful. If I'm not helping, I have better
things to do with my time and need to quit the group, so again, help is
what I honestly intend, tho I may not always be the best at actually
accomplishing same. In the below, I hope to provoke a thought process, a
discussion, and ultimately, help both pan to get better, and its users
to get better at using it.  I'm NOT after putting people down, just because
they happen to see things differently, and unconditionally apologize
where it may seem that way. Honest (and ideally courteous) debate where
there's disagreement, seeking a solution acceptable and ideally best for
all advances the goal I'm here for. Please continue to read the following
with that in mind.

> pan "knows" which server it gets each group from so, by default, it
> should use that server to post to.

But if it gets said group from a lot of servers, what then?  Post to the
first one using the first profile by default, even if the user has no
posting privileges there and in fact would be embarrassed to have his
primary profile used? That's what it used to do.

So, for each group, one can set a profile (in group properties, or by
simply selecting a profile from the drop-down when making the post).

Along with all the other profile settings (name, email, sig, additional
headers one might wish to use by default with that profile), one selects
the server that profile posts to.  That's the natural place to put it, as
setting the posting profile then sets all options to do with posting, with
all posting options available in one place.  It doesn't set all options
(except this little thing, what server the post actually goes to); it
doesn't set all options (except this little thing, what sig you want to
use); it doesn't set all options (except this little thing, what email
address you want to use); setting the posting profile sets all options
having to do with posting, together, with all options available to be set
presented together in one place, the posting profiles. It's quite simple
and intuitive, actually, or it certainly seems so here.

If one then selects a profile that says post to a server that doesn't have
the group, one then gets an error to the effect that the group isn't on
that server.  If one selects a profile that has the group, but where
posting isn't allowed, one then gets an error (propagated from that
server) to that effect.

Question: If you hadn't setup a posting profile yet, no from name or
address, no nothing, what would you expect pan to do?  Well, I'd expect it
to object when I opened the posting dialog, telling me to setup a posting
profile first.  Once a profile has been setup, presumably you set it up,
and saw and either accepted the default choice (still the first server
listed, I believe), or selected a different choice.

Then when you go to post to a group not on the server you already setup
for that profile to post to, and pan tells you that group doesn't exist,
that doesn't seem at all logical to you?  So then the question becomes,
"OK, it's not allowing me to post, but I can download just fine.  What
possible settings would allow me to download but not to post?"  If one can
download and not post, one looks in...? right, the posting settings! As
soon as one opens the posting profiles list, one sees one or more
profiles, and presumably opens up the one in question to examine what
might be wrong.  As soon as one does so, guess what, the selected posting
server (along with all the other posting settings) is immediately visible.
Thought process quickly going down the list... Profile name, OK, obvious,
posting name, nothing wrong I can see, email, might be fake, but that
doesn't seem to fit the error, server?  Uh oh!  A gmane.* group isn't
going to exist on THAT server, no WONDER the error said the group didn't
exist. Better do something about that!  <mouse...type...type...type...>
OK, fixed, let's see if it works!  Vwalla!  No error!

In fairness, I should point out that I was the one who came up with the
idea, so it /should/ seem simple to me, but no one else came up with a
better idea, or even really any decent alternative, tho both Charles and
I asked for other ideas.  I guess it must have seemed at least as decently
simple and intuitive as anything they could come up with to everyone
else...  So lacking a better or more intuitive idea, the lone candidate
unsurprisingly won by default.

If you have a better idea, I'd honestly like to see it (and I'm sure
Charles would want to see it as well).

Meanwhile, back at the ranch... <g>

I do agree a case can be made (one I agree with) that at the wording of
that error can be significantly improved.  As it is, it's not as intuitive
as it might be, precisely because as you said, you know the group /does/
exist as you are looking at it, and there's no real hint that it means
"doesn't exist /on/ /the/ /selected/ /posting/ /server/."

So OK, pan's in beta, and we're all beta testers to some degree or
another.  What should beta testers do when they see a bug like the one
above?  Report it!  Pan has a link to file a bug, so please use it (and
get mentioned in pan's credits). =8^) This group/list is a great place to
discuss it and work out the details, but it doesn't substitute for
actually filing the bug where Charles can keep track of it and fix it as
necessary.  When you file the bug, please put a link to this discussion
thread in the comments.  The gmane web link is perfect:
http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnome.apps.pan.user/8160

Then please come back here and post the bug number and/or URL, thus
creating a link both ways, and I'll second the bug.

Meanwhile, back in town... <g>

Anyone with proposals on how to better word this error, please post'em!
=8^)

Here's mine, spur of the moment and I admit somewhat clumsily worded, so
there's likely better:

-----
There were problems with this post.

Warning: The following groups are unknown on the posting server currently
selected for this posting profile.  You may wish to examine your profile
selection.

gmane.comp.gnome.apps.pan.user

-----

Keep in mind that in the case of cross-posting, it's quite possible one or
more listed newsgroups appear on that server, while others do not.  Thus,
it's possible someone may wish to continue the posting even if some don't
appear on the server in question.  That's why this is a warning, not an
error, altho if no listed newsgroups exist, and the post is sent anyway,
it'll probably return an error from the news server itself to that effect.
Still, said error will depend on the server, which may simply act like it
accepted the post, while bit-bucketing it instead.

So the warning, however it is worded, must remain just that, a warning,
and continue to allow the user to say yes, that's what I wanted to do. 
Making it an error or more than suggesting that it might be a posting
profile misconfig, is therefore not such a good idea.

Open for discussion! =8^)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman