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Re: ``Shut-up and Hack!"
From: |
Luis Araujo |
Subject: |
Re: ``Shut-up and Hack!" |
Date: |
Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:53:26 -0400 |
User-agent: |
Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060805) |
Jonathan S. Shapiro wrote:
> In my opinion, the reasons we are still in the C/C++ world for OS's are
> as follows:
>
> 1. More modern languages all rely on GC. GC does not get along with
> real time or DMA, media applications are important, and they
> rely on both.
>
> 2. Legacy apps are written in these languages. Even if you write your
> core system in something else, you need to be able to support the
> C/C++ runtime environment for apps. This creates a legacy/fusion
> problem in your architecture.
>
> 3. There is no compelling performance reason to choose a safe language
> and language-enforced safety in preference to C and address spaces.
> In fact, the Singularity numbers show that the costs are, at best,
> equivalent.
>
> 4. The majority of alternatives rely on JIT compilers. A high
> performance JIT compiler is easily 10x the complexity of a fast
> microkernel, and takes *years* longer to develop.
>
> Singularity is a notable exception to this statement, because they
> chose to omit dynamic loading and also to compile in advance. Their
> compiler is still within the TCB, but it can be removed from the
> TCB for most purposes if the typed assembly language stuff works
> out. They also gave up the class loader idea, which was a VERY good
> decision. Class loaders are completely unnecessary if the OS has
> a decent application domain model.
>
I agree with you here, though i think these all points are like saying
"electrical cars are not an option because we don't have any way to burn
the fuel..."
> 5. In the absence of a compelling advantage, the risk of adopting new
> technology isn't justified **if** it doesn't already exist in
> established form.
>
I doubt we would have reached our current state of technology (at any
level) if this were true.
> So the real question is: is there some market where the benefit might be
> compelling so that the new technology can be demonstrated? More
> precisely: where the benefit of new technology is so clear that the cost
> of developing the new technology while simultaneously supporting the
> legacy technology is justified.
>
I think the real question is, What kind of OS do we want to use within
10 years? ...
> Perhaps the answer is yes, but identifying that market is a very
> challenging thing to do. It took us 10 years for the EROS/Coyotos stuff
> to figure out the right initial market.
>
Market thinking can become in one of the most dangerous things for
innovations.
As a sidenote, briefly referring to John Ousterhout , when he talks
about scripting programming:
"They give up execution speed and strength of typing relative to system
programming languages but provide significantly higher programmer
productivity and software reuse."
.. and i think that if the OS researching community wants to go anywhere
(further than unix-limited clones) , it will have to "give up" some
things ... which ones? , well, that is what we have to find ... but i
think that performance (at least initially) , will sadly have to be one
of them unless you want to keep stuck (current state in my opinion).
And so, in this regard, i think the programming language community is
making more progress than us (they have been able to give up more than
us)... why not to ask for a bit of help?.
Sincerely,
Luis
- Re: Coyotos : A restatement, (continued)
- Message not available
- Re: ``Shut-up and Hack!", Guillaume FORTAINE, 2006/08/12
- Re: ``Shut-up and Hack!", Alan Grimes, 2006/08/12
- Re: ``Shut-up and Hack!", Luis Araujo, 2006/08/12
- Re: ``Shut-up and Hack!", Jonathan S. Shapiro, 2006/08/12
- Message not available
- Re: ``Shut-up and Hack!", Guillaume FORTAINE, 2006/08/12
- Re: ``Shut-up and Hack!", Jonathan S. Shapiro, 2006/08/12
- Message not available
- Re: ``Shut-up and Hack!", Guillaume FORTAINE, 2006/08/12
- Re: ``Shut-up and Hack!",
Luis Araujo <=
- languages (was: Re: ``Shut-up and Hack!"), olafBuddenhagen, 2006/08/13
- Re: languages (was: Re: ``Shut-up and Hack!"), Jonathan S. Shapiro, 2006/08/13
- Re: languages, Luis Araujo, 2006/08/13
- Re: languages, Luis Araujo, 2006/08/13
- Message not available
- Re: ``Shut-up and Hack!", Luis Araujo, 2006/08/12
- Re: ``Shut-up and Hack!", Farid Hajji, 2006/08/13