RE: [Axiom-developer] #pile vs. non-#pile

[Bill Page]

Gaby,

On August 20, 2006 12:57 AM you wrote:
> ...
> | Tim Daly wrote:
> | > What possible advantage can piles claim?
> | > 
> Bill Page wrote:
> | Hmmm... 20,000 Python programmers? ;)
> 
> That is hardly a conclusive argument.
> 

Agreed. I do not know of any conclusive argument one way or the
other. All I wish to point out is that the statements made by you,
Tim, and Ralf about #pile syntax is based only on personal bias
and not on fact.

My reference to 20,000 programmers was in relationship to my
desire that programming in Axiom should be made to seem appealing
to the "next generation". I think associating Axiom (and Aldor in
#pile mode) with Python and Haskell via the (admittedly somewhat
superficial) resemblance of their syntax might be one small PR
step in that direction.

> [...]
> 
> | But it's an old debate alright. Using indentation to represent
> | (not just document) program structure was in fact proposed by
> | Donald Knuth and several others 46 years ago!
> 
> well, given TeX's syntax, I would not claim his language syntax
> design choices are always very spectacular, compared to his
> strength at other computer science matters :-/

I think your argument is not strengthened when you choose to argue
with spectacular success. If Knuth had invented MathML in the 1970's
instead of TeX do you think he would be so widely known today? ;)

> 
> [...]
> 
> | But there are some well known languages other than Python use
> | indentation for program structure (notably: Haskell).
> 
> yes, and I hate it.  Two months ago I wasted whole day chasing
> a bug in one of my Haskell programs, only to discover that it
> was an indentation issue in an instance declaration.  That bug
> happened after reformatting a correct, working, program. It is
> a misfeature.
> 

Get serious! Your experience is at best only anecdotal. Programmers
have collectively sent many days chasing bugs due to misplaced ;
and logic errors hidden by meaninglessly indented code. I don't know
what you mean by "reformatting a correct, working program" but if
your "reformatting" involved changing indentation, then how is that
different from randomly moving { } symbols to other parts of your
program? I think your problem with Haskell stems for simple lack
of experience in programming in that language.

I would be very interested if you could point to any instance in
the SPAD coding in the Axiom library of a logic error due to
incorrect indentation. I am not saying that it is not possible,
but simply that I find it unlikely.

Regards,
Bill Page.