Re: Kickstarter was not successful... but it did help things...

[Gregory Casamento]

On Nov 23, 2013, at 12:32 PM, Riccardo Mottola <riccardo.mottola@libero.it> 
wrote:

> Hi,
> On 11/23/13 12:33, Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
>> On 23 Nov 2013, at 08:48, Gregory Casamento <greg.casamento@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> I'm in agreement with this. I've been saying this for many years. I would 
>>> like to call for a consensus on this matter. Are there any dissenting 
>>> opinions to changing the default look?
>> Yes!
> me too!

Understood and entirely anticipated. :)

> However, I do like Fred's comment: essentially, we should have no "hard 
> coded" theme, no "preferential" theme. That will make everything easier.

Not having a fallback in gui might be a problem since not all themes need to 
draw all widgets.  What I propose is having GNUstep load whatever theme is 
deemed “Default” in the themes directory and, if that’s not present, fall back 
to the current GNUstep look.

>> 
>> Show me the theme you want to switch to, and then we can talk about it (I'm 
>> easily persuaded if something makes sense).  I would have thought that an 
>> iOS style theme might be popular.
>> But until we have at least one fully working alternative theme to switch to 
>> (or better, a number of themes to select from), discussing switching is 
>> nothing but a waste of time.
> First we need to come up with a good theme! and you will find that nobody wll 
> agree on which one is best.

People don’t currently agree that the existing NeXT-like theme is best either, 
so it doesn’t change the situation very much.

>> Actually, even the argument that the *default* theme puts people off is 
>> really nonsense ... if people see something that puts them off, is is what 
>> they *see* that puts them off, not whether what they see is *default*.
>> 
>> Put screenshots of GNUstep looking 'sexier' on the website.  Make them more 
>> prominent than the existing theme by all means (eg. put them first and 
>> bigger).  To find out which works best (ie is most popular) we could have 
>> some sort of click-through or download counter.
> The gnuste website has already themed screenshots, just check. Not just the 
> theme, but we need to blog, show activity, etc. Instead, we just discuss and 
> do little (also because at the end it is not so important).

They are not good enough.  It seems you’re ignoring an obvious fact.  People go 
on what they first see. What you are being told is that the look of the website 
and the look of GNUstep itself is outdated.  Both of which are true.  First 
this sentiment emanated from outside of the community, but now it is coming 
from within.  I’m wondering why there is such denial about this.

Part of the reason why we “do little” is because there is such vociferous 
defense of many things by people who are uncomfortable with change.

>> I've just been reading a book 'Thinking, Fast and Slow' by Daniel Kahneman 
>> and one of the things I was struck by was the psychological research 
>> measuring the tendency of people to avoid risk to the extent of avoiding 
>> changes from an existing state even when, in any other context, they would 
>> think the new sytate was better than the old one.
>> 
>> Whatever you intend, as long as you talk about changing the default theme, 
>> people will read that as replacing/getting-rid-of the current look (rather 
>> than supporting equal alternatives).  While I know that's not what you mean, 
>> it's counterproductive as it will always produce opposition from anyone who 
>> likes the current theme, and even from people who might like a new theme 
>> better!  IMO you should simply provide/advertise at least one good new look 
>> rather than 'threatening' a change.
> Very sensible. The first thing to do is to offer a valid alternative. 
> Actually, not one, just more. As people have different "goals" for GNUstep, 
> so they have different needs in their themes.

Indeed.

> Once you have several themes, well maintained, working and advertised in 
> special pages on gnustep.org, gap or etoile, then you will see that this 
> discussion is actually moot.

Don’t declare a discussion moot until it’s actually been had.  I often find 
it’s people who declare such things that are afraid of the discussion itself.

> 
>> Build and advertise at least one good new theme.
> +1
> 
> (and to that, you need them :) )
> 
> Riccardo

Greg