Re: [fluid-dev] Issue with modulation

[jean-jacques.ceresa]

Hi Mark,

> I think controller 1 is modulation MSB. I don't know what effect setting it
> to 127 is actually intended to have, but then I don't understand why any
> such message should be generated :(.

Yes, controller 1 is CC modulation MSB and on noteOn (commands or MIDI) there 
is a default Modulator
to 'Vibrato LFO pitch depth generator. But keep in mind that any 'identical' 
modulator inside the soundfonts
supersede any default modulator.

To validate your found, you can use the following commands that force any MIDI 
CC 1 value
to 0 for channel 0 and 1. The router is an excellent tools during testing phase:

#remove current rules. The router drops MIDI all events!!
router_clear

#set the rule to force CC 1 value to 0, for channel 0
router_begin cc
router_chan 0 0   0 0
router_par1 1 1   0 1
router_par2 0 127 0 0
router_end

#set the rule to force CC 1 value to 0, for channel 1
router_begin cc
router_chan 1 1   0 1
router_par1 1 1   0 1
router_par2 0 127 0 0
router_end

#now set the rules to pass through other useful events (note, prog change, 
pitch bend,channel pressure, key pressure)
router_begin note
router_end
router_begin prog
router_end
router_begin pbend
router_end
router_begin cpress
router_end
router_begin kpress
router_end

#and, so on, for example, to pass sustain pedal to all channels
router_begin cc
router 64 64 0 64
router_end

Now you can send MIDI noteOn/Off and verify if the issue is gone or not.

Best regards


Le 22/07/2016 01:45, Mark de Roussier a écrit :
> Hi Element,
>
> OK, I've just tried the aseqdump idea. There are no unexpected note events.
> But there are control change events sent when I change channel on the
> keyboard, which of course I am doing during my test. When I change midi
> channel from 1 to 2, I see :
>
> Control change  0, controller 1, value 0
> Control change  1, controller 1, value 127
>
> And vice versa, for 2 to 1 :
>
> Control change  1, controller 1, value 0
> Control change  0, controller 1, value 127
>
> I think controller 1 is modulation MSB. I don't know what effect setting it
> to 127 is actually intended to have, but then I don't understand why any
> such message should be generated :(.
>
> And just to confirm, I also see these when I dump the channel using 'amidi
> -p hw:1,0,0 -d'.
>
> Arrrgh !!!! I've just tried pressing the 'vibrato' button on the keyboard
> I'm using, which is ancient and only used for hacking/testing purposes.
> There's a small rubber button that turns vibrato on, and a LED that should
> light up when vibrato is on, but it seems that it doesn't.
>
> Very sorry to waste all your time - but without your help, I might still be
> screwed, so thanks a lot :).
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
>
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2016 15:52:47 -0600, you wrote:
>
> > Hello Mark,
> >
> > I wouldn't trust the Anjuta project file, it may be outdated.  The cmake
> > build is the recommended method of building FluidSynth currently.
> >
> > In regards to MIDI events being possibly the source of the problem, what
> > about running something like aseqdump and connecting your keyboard up to it
> > and see if it is sending anything weird.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Element
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 3:48 PM, Mark de Roussier <address@hidden>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Jean-Jacques,
> > >
> > > OK, I agree completely that this behaviour is strange :). I expected that
> > > the noteon command would be enough show the problem. I was very surprised
> > > when it didn't and I needed to hit a key on the midi keyboard.
> > >
> > > But if my midi keyboard was sending on two channels or alsa was causing
> > > duplication, and the fluidsynth router is not doing anything, I would also
> > > expect to hear the problem when trying to play the Hammond on channel 2,
> > > which would be mixed up with the Acoustic Keyboard on channel 1. This does
> > > not happen.
> > >
> > > And it does not explain ( for me ! ) why cc 0,121,0 ( which deals only with
> > > the state of modulators for the voice associated with the channel, I think
> > > ) makes the problem go away on channel 1 until another 'Hammond' key is hit
> > > via another channel.
> > >
> > > Here is what 'amidi -p hw:1,0,0 -d' says when I hit a midi keyboard key (
> > > middle C on channel 1 ) with the channel set to 1 :
> > >
> > > 90 3C 5A
> > > 90 3C 00
> > >
> > > And with the channel set to 2 :
> > >
> > > 91 3C 5A
> > > 91 3C 00
> > >
> > > So, just the note on and note off for one channel.
> > >
> > > I noticed there was an Anjuta project file. I've been looking at the
> > > sources in Anjuta on my workstation, and I can build it there, so I'll see
> > > if I can reproduce the problem there too, will be easier to work with than
> > > on the RPi.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > On Thu, 21 Jul 2016 09:51:59 +0200, you wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi, Mark
> > > >
> > > > Hope thiss should help to localize the issue:
> > > > A)Inside Fluidsynth,
> > > > 1)The 'noteOn command' plays a note using the function API
> > > > fluid_synth_noteon(channel,key,velocity).
> > > > 2) When receiving a MIDI noteOn message, the MIDI driver puts this
> > > > message to the input Router and than the Router use the same API
> > > > fluid_synth_noteon(channel,key,velocity).
> > > > The same description is true for 'noteoff command'/ MIDI noteOff message
> > > > (both make use of API fluid_synth_noteoff(channel,key)).
> > > > If we assume that the router is neutral (which is the default behavior),
> > > > there is no reason that  the results using 'commands noteon/noteoff,' or
> > > > using MIDI are differents.
> > > >
> > > > So, may be your MIDI keyboard sends events on more than one MIDI
> > > > channels at the same time ?.
> > > > Or, may be Alsa Driver do this kind of duplicates MIDI messages ?
> > > >
> > > > B)
> > > > > Current Raspian distro, fluidsynth 1.1.6
> > > > Just want to report that the current fluidsynth 1.1.6 coming from Rasbian
> > > repository is out of date!
> > > > I don't think that the issue is related to current Rasbian fluidsynth.
> > > > however, if your RPi is connected to internet you may update:
> > > > 1)Download the current git fluidsynth source version (1.1.6) on
> > > sourceforge.
> > > > 2)Build Fluidsynth.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Le 20/07/2016 20:14, Mark de Roussier a écrit :
> > > > > Hello Jean-Jacques,
> > > > >
> > > > > perhaps it will help if I describe how I can create the problem.
> > > > >
> > > > > Environment :
> > > > > =============
> > > > > Current Raspian distro, fluidsynth 1.1.6
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm using an RPi 2 with an external Behringer USB DAC and a Roland
> > > UM-ONE
> > > > > USB Midi adaptor - I don't believe the specific hardware is relevant.
> > > > >
> > > > > Steps to reproduce :
> > > > > ====================
> > > > >
> > > > > Run fluidsynth as follows :
> > > > >
> > > > > schedtool -R -p 49 -e fluidsynth -a alsa -o
> > > audio.alsa.device=front:CODEC,0
> > > > > -m alsa_raw -o midi.alsa.device=hw:1,0,0 -g 0.5 -C no -R no -l
> > > > >
> > > > > Load the standard GM font :
> > > > >
> > > > >       load /usr/share/sounds/sf2/FluidR3_GM.sf2
> > > > >
> > > > > Sound a note from this font :
> > > > >
> > > > >       noteon 0 60 80
> > > > >       noteoff 0 60
> > > > >
> > > > > This makes the correct noise - GM Acoustic Grand.
> > > > >
> > > > > Load a Hammond Organ font :
> > > > >
> > > > >       load /home/pi/Music/Hammondsf2/05.sf2
> > > > >
> > > > > This has blown away our channel mapping, so remap :
> > > > >
> > > > >       select 0 1 0 0
> > > > >       select 1 2 0 0
> > > > >
> > > > > Sound the same GM note as before :
> > > > >
> > > > >       noteon 0 60 80
> > > > >       noteoff 0 60
> > > > >
> > > > > This makes the correct noise - GM Acoustic Grand.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sound a note from the Hammond font :
> > > > >
> > > > >       noteon 1 60 80
> > > > >       noteoff 1 60
> > > > >
> > > > > This makes the correct noise - Hammond.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sound a note from the GM font again :
> > > > >
> > > > >       noteon 0 60 80
> > > > >       noteoff 0 60
> > > > >
> > > > > This makes the correct noise - GM Acoustic Grand
> > > > >
> > > > > Now play a note on channel 2 on a midi keyboard - this makes the correct
> > > > > noise ( Hammond ).
> > > > >
> > > > > Now play a note on channel 1 on a midi keyboard. This makes the WRONG
> > > > > noise, its a horribly distorted Acoustic Piano.
> > > > >
> > > > > It might just be a mix of Hammond and Acoustic Piano, but to me it
> > > sounds
> > > > > more like the Acoustic Piano with the vibrato from the Hammond.
> > > > >
> > > > > Issue the command
> > > > >
> > > > >       cc 0 121 0
> > > > >
> > > > > Play the keyboard again ( channel 1 ) - now this makes the correct
> > > noise (
> > > > > Acoustic Grand ).
> > > > >
> > > > > Unfortunately the Hammond soundfont is commercial, so I can't just
> > > share it
> > > > > :(. I used a tool ( Swami ) to look at this font. When I look at notes
> > > in
> > > > > the instrument section, and select the 'Misc. Controls' tab, I see a non
> > > > > zero value ( 8.176 ) for the frequency setting of the Modulation LFO.
> > > > >
> > > > > So my initial hypothesis is that when a note is played ( via MIDI ),
> > > then
> > > > > this modulation is applied to all MIDI channels, even if they are
> > > mapped to
> > > > > an entirely different font.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Mark
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 09:56:14 +0200, you wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi, Mark
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > the modulation characteristics of a Hammond font mapped to one midi
> > > > > > > channel end up being applied to everything...
> > > > > > Can you explain what you mean by "..the modulation caracteristics of a
> > > Hammond font.." ?
> > > > > > If you feel that there is something wrong, please don't hesitate to
> > > explain what you have found.
> > > > > > > I've looked at sourceforge, but it wasn't clear how I should raise a
> > > > > > ticket.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1) You must create an account on Sourceforge.
> > > > > > 2) Once logged from your account, the Ticket tab enables menus to
> > > create and edit your ticket.
> > > > > > > Is this an appropriate place to discuss the problem ? If so I'll
> > > > > > > supply more details.
> > > > > > I you read through the tickets you will find that usually tickets are
> > > used to:
> > > > > > 1) raise "Bugs"  or offer "patches".
> > > > > > 2) but they are used also for "technical suggestions"about fluidsynth
> > > actual behavior
> > > > > > and possible enhancements to remain compliant with SoundFonts and MIDI.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Le 20/07/2016 02:30, Mark de Roussier a écrit :
> > > > > > > Hi everyone,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm attempting to use fluidsynth as the basis for a headless soundfont
> > > > > > > synth based on an RPi. The particular requirement is that it should
> > > have
> > > > > > > some good Hammond organ sounds, and also support standard GM. So I'm
> > > trying
> > > > > > > to configure fluidsynth with some commercial Hammond fonts plus the
> > > > > > > standard fluidsynth GM font.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think I've found a problem in the course of trying to make this
> > > work. The
> > > > > > > gist of the matter is that there appear to be some circumstances in
> > > which
> > > > > > > the modulation characteristics of a Hammond font mapped to one midi
> > > channel
> > > > > > > end up being applied to everything, regardless of font or channel.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've looked at sourceforge, but it wasn't clear how I should raise a
> > > > > > > ticket. Is this an appropriate place to discuss the problem ? If so
> > > I'll
> > > > > > > supply more details.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > Mark
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > fluid-dev mailing list
> > > > > > > address@hidden
> > > > > > > https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/fluid-dev
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > fluid-dev mailing list
> > > address@hidden
> > > https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/fluid-dev