Re: subito dynamic after hairpin

[Tiresia GIUNO]

On Thu, 23 Aug 2012 07:35:51 +1200
wjm <address@hidden> wrote:
> On 23/08/12 00:36, Phil Holmes wrote:
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "wjm" <address@hidden>
> > To: <address@hidden>; "Lilypond-User List"
> > <address@hidden>
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 12:32 PM
> > Subject: Re: subito dynamic after hairpin
> >
> >
> >> From your reply...
> >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >> > Given that sfz is equal to subito-forzando
> >> > (see
> >> > http://piano.about.com/od/termsrelatingtodynamics/g/GL_subito.htm)
> >>
> >> That page at piano.about.com is incorrect (and silly). sfz is not
> >> equal to subito forzando; it seems that the English-speaking
> >> about.com writers weren't sure what any of these words meant, and
> >> decided that instead of simply checking an Italian dictionary,
> >> they would make something up. In fact, "sforzando" is an ordinary
> >> and legitimate word, not an abbreviation for anything else, and in
> >> fact the word "subito" is rarely (probably never) represented in
> >> scores by a single letter "s" - too vague. ("sub." gets used
> >> fairly often, but perhaps even more often the word is spelled out.)
> >>
> >> It's sad that people (this is directed at the about.com hacks, not
> >> at you) see fit to publish made-up definitions of words they don't
> >> know.
> >>
> >>
> >> My criticism of the clueless & irresponsible writers of that page
> >> has no bearing on the value of what you have contributed to the
> >> Lilypond discussion. While your discovery is (through no fault of
> >> yours) probably not useful in this particular situation, I hope it
> >> proves useful for other purposes.
> >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >>
> >> I have no intention of taking part in a war of words :)
> >> The following links might shed a faint light on the 'confusion' at
> >> the site I quoted (assuming 'they' know what they're talking about
> >> - I'm in no position to judge!)
> >>
> >> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sforzando
> >> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/subito
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamics_%28music%29#Words.2Fphrases_indicating_changes_of_dynamics
> >>
> >>
> >> Particularly note the image in the TR coner of this page
> >> 'Subito forzando' and 'piano' dynamics in Beethoven's String
> >> Quartet in A Major, Op. 18, no. 5, III, variation I, m. 7-8.
> >>
> >> So does sfz mean sforzando or subito forzando ? :)
> >>
> >> Would explaining what "subito mf" means to a possibly not
> >> completely erudite set of performers be any more difficult than
> >> explaining what "smf" means?
> >>
> >> Oh well.
> >>
> >> I thought English was bad enough in having two ways of doing
> >> things - apparently the Italians do as well.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >> Bill
> >
> >
> > Looks like an internet urban myth.  My Grove does not mention
> > sforzando as being anything other than being from the Italian for
> > forced.  My Chambers dictionary defines it as coming from the
> > present participle of the Italian sforzare.
> >
> > --
> > Phil Holmes
> 
> ? Any Italian linguists out there??
> :)
> 'Nuff said.
> 
> However, if a prepositioned-s before any dynamic is meaningful why 
> doesn't LP include them 'all' in the dynamics definition file.
> 
> "The available dynamic marks are \ppppp, \pppp, \ppp, \pp, \p, \mp,
> \mf, \f, \ff, \fff, \ffff, \fffff, \fp, \sf, \sff, \sp, \spp, \sfz,
> and \rfz." (NR)
> 
> What exactly is the meaning of sff? In my limited experience singing 
> with a small chamber choir I saw sfz but don't recall ever seeing sff
> or any other s-dynamic.
> 
> Regards
> Bill
> 
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As Italian and as composer I can confirm that "sfz" was _never_ intended
as "subito forzando". I see this interpretation of "sfz" as "subito
fz" also in wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamics_(music)

but it refers to an empty and untrustworthy source.

In Italian language you can find "forzare" and "sforzare".

"sforzATO" is as "forced" the past participle of "sforzare" (whit
passive meaning) while "sforzANDO" means "forcing" and is the "present
gerund" - you don't have this form in English, but it is translated
with the "-ing form". Another similar example is glissato and glissando.

In my experience "sf" is the same as "sfz".

Since "sfz" and "sf" is a sort of "marked accent" (that at the same time
can imply a light temporal changement) you can apply it in different
dynamics context, i.e. you can find it in p music as well as in f and
ff music. Therefore you can use sfzp (or sforzato nel piano) - which is
different than "fp" (fortepiano).

For "subito" you always need either to write the whole word or to
abbreviate it to "sub." (the same for "simile" or "sim.", "ordinario"
or "ord." and so on...)

And as far as I can remember (but I'm not sure!) you find the word
"sub." after the dynamics and in italics (while the dynamics is
italics _and_ bold) 

Regards, TG