Re: [Phpgroupware-developers] We cant continue to work like we do at the moment

[ceb]

hey,
ralf, you imported the jscal to the phpgwapi which is the core of phpgw
and were we have strictly agreements and rules, as they are i.e.
discussing changes with the other developers _before_ going ahead and
comitting them.

we have ideas how to handle js in phpgw and it needs to be discussed
with the other developers. you can not just commit all what you get in
your mind without to talk to the other developers. this is not
demoratically, this is called ignorant.

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003, Ralf Becker wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm very unhappy about writeing again to this list with a topic, which
> might be seen by some as the next fight. I would not do so, if I dont
> think it's important and as my subject says:
>
> *We cant continue to work like we do atm*
>
> For those who are not constantly monitoring the IRC channel here a short
> recall whats happened. It's of cause my view of the situation and I'm
> sure others will jump in quickly adding their view ;-)
>
> 1) I imported the jsCalendar into phpGroupWare, after hearing many
> feature requests about a calendar popup

> 2) ceb removed it the yesterday morning with the comment "what crap"

if you look at the license prob we have to deal with now (short before we
the first rc for the 16 release finally) its a good expression imo :)

the author of jscalendar got informed via email about the license break
through the additional sentense nad hopefully will change the header info
so we can reimport that jscalendar properly.


> 3) I talked to ceb about it on IRC (see the following log)
> 4) ceb took away my commit-rights for the API, without further
> consultation of other developers
> 5) I talked with ceb and skwashd on IRC

dito

>
> Here's the IRC log from yesterday
> http://www.free-source.com/phpgw/irclogs/show_log.php?date=20030823
>
> I'm *very* unhappy about the situation at the moment. After long
> discussions in spring this year, we have commited ourselft to a
> restructoring, from which I hoped the project would be lead more openly
> and democratic. The events of the last weeks let me doubt this again.
>
> We have at the moment two acting leaders of the project (ceb + skwashd)
> which act, in my opion with very little, sometimes none consultation of
> the other developers or even each other. I just want to give two examples:
>
> 1) Takeing away my commit-right
> As you can see from the IRC logs, ceb not even consulted skwashd before
> she took away my commit-rights. Takeing away the commit-rights of a
> developer is an extrem harsh measure, which in no project, which calls
> itself democratic, can be taken without a big consens of the other
> developers, just by one (not even elected) leader.
>

as you should know we do you just have an irc channel to talk ... there
are many other possibilities to have a chat, as there are by phone, by
mail, another channel maybe .... let me see if i forgot one ;)
(sorry but this sounds too funny... *As you can see from the IRC logs*)

skwashd and seek3r of course got informed

ralf, you forgot to tell this is not the first time you went ahead and
just committed changes to the api without telling someone. it was an agreement
to discuss and descide togehter _before_ adding changes. to remove you from
the phpgwapi developer list was the last way to finally stop your acting
to behave as phpgroupware would be your private project.

you shouldnt just start to talk about *we* if something doesnt work out as
you expected it would. you also have to see the phpgroupware as *our*
project concerning discussions/agreements about improvements/new features.
tell me when did you talk about a whole js tool you want to add to the
phpgwapi?

> 2) The buying for the new server-box
> This was decided by skwashd alone, at this time not without consulting
> of  any other developer, but against the opionion of the other developer
> in the channel (me). Buying something for the project is in my opion
> again something, which need a consens of the majority developers and
> cant by taken by one leader alone.
>
> I will not deny that this make me personaly unhappy and angry, and this
> is one of the reasons I write this mail. On the other hand the way these
> decission have been taken, is in my opionin not aceptable for a
> democratic project and for me personaly not acceptible for a project I
> enjoy spending a lot of time in.
>
> You might wonder why I only argu against the way the decisions have been
> taken and not that they have been taken. I think everyone knows or can
> imagine my position / personal view in both issues and I dont think I
> have to justify myself. And its up to everyone to agree or disagree with
> the decission. But *I'm quite sure I'm not the only one who wanted to be
> asked before such dessions are taken*.
>


to get an own webserver was the only way to follow the agreement we made.
during our discussions concerning the structure change we agreed in having
our homepage on a box which is hosted by the fsf. since the fsf isnt able
to grant us shell access to one of their boxes we had to get an own one.
there hasnt been another choice.


> My *personal* view about the jsCalendar issue and others in the last
> time: I think good relations to the GNU project and the GPL are
> necessary and important. More important for me is the development /
> progress of the project and the fun and comunity with the other
> developers. I think both are not oppositional in general, as the first
> has some importance for the development of the project too. I think our
> momentary (self-apointed AND from us accepted) leaders are overdoing
> this a lot. Other project like eg. DCL (Double Chocolate) are useing
> jsCalendar, while maintaining the same GNU status as we (GNU project,
> part of dotGNU and GNU enterprise).
>
> We dont have to remove everything imediatly (and therefor break our
> software) if the slightest doubt araises it might not be compatible with
> our desired license. I was in favor of moving our API to GPL, but I now
> start haveing doubts: it seems to mean, we have to edit every single
> little tool-class (to relicense it from LGPL to GPL), we want to use in
> our project. We loose the abbility and benefit that we can update them
> easily, when a new version comes up. And we are acting against the will
> of the author of this class (I'm not talking about our own
> contributions). And there are many interesting classe out there and many
> have already been named in several discussions on the mailing list.

to avoid nonfree or other software which isnt licensed under gpl/lgpl is
the correct way to go as a gnu package ... we shouldnt look at someone
else who uses an incorrect way of handling this kind of probs. just
because some other projects use nonfree or incorrect licensed code i dont
think we should do it the same way.

>
> To come back to my subject and finish this lengthy mail ;-)
>
> *We cant continue to work like we do atm*
>
> If we are unhappy about the way our project is moveing at the moment we
> need to change it. I'm sure this realy a *we* and not just me. If we
> cant change our project for whatever reason, it becomes less and less
> our project. I'm sure everone know how important it is, specialy for an
> Open Source project, that all contributors feel it's *their* project. If
> it is no longer - they move on, like it happend many time in the past :-(.
>

right, ralf, i am unhappy about your ignorance and the missing contact to
the other developers before committing changes to our api. i really would
like to work in a team where we can trust each other and where we can be
sure all developers take each other seriously... i get the strong
impression you just start complaining if something doesnt work out in a
way you want it. democracy doesnt mean we have to accept all of ralf
beckers ideas added to our projects cvs and deal with it afterwards ... :)


> In hope to start a fruitful discussion

i hope we finally get the 0.9.16 release out after a delay of some month,
so we can actually start improving head, do some development. and im more
than tired of this fights.

grtx.ceb

>
> Ralf
>
> PS.: I like to discuss this with every contributor of the project. I
> send it on purpose to the developers-list only and hope we can keep it
> this way for now.
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ralf Becker
> OUTDOOR UNLIMITED Training GmbH                Telefon 0631 / 31657-0
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>
>
>
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