Re: emacs mode line suggestions

[Richard Riley]

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

>> You seem to miss the point slightly. Many beginners do not, 
>> for obvious reasons, frequent emacs development. And it is beginners I 
>> was referring to.
>
> I did not miss your point. Perhaps you missed mine. New users should be
> encouraged to join emacs-devel if they are interested in how Emacs might be
> improved. That is where they can give their views about it and hear from 
> others
> about it. That list was created precisely for that, among other
> things.

I think we are missing each others since I strongly disagree with your
point. I do not think emacs-devel is the place for newbies to ask such
questions. Here is.

> This, on the other hand, is primarily a list for help questions.

I think having the reasons behind certain "well thats the way it is"
features of emacs explained is help.

>
>> Nearly all users tend to develop their own add ons and/or
>> customisations. Looks at the far reaching Icicles for a good 
>> example :-;
>
> Yes, and so?
> I said the same thing.
>
>> It would be a pretty poor sample if the the only new users you could
>> discuss things with were the ones willing and able to subscribe to emacs
>> development.
>
> No, emacs-devel was created as the place for such discussion. The Emacs wiki 
> is
> another such place. IMO, such discussion is not best on help-gnu-emacs, for 
> new
> users or old.

The emacs wiki is not a good place for such discussions unless there is
somewhere there I have missed. This group is a thread based group/list
which enables one to easily censor/filter material one finds immaterial
to ones needs.

>
>> Few users do.
>
> That doesn't mean that that's not the appropriate place for such discussion. 
> And
> it doesn't make this list appropriate for it.

I think it is appropriate. I have explained why. Note I am not saying
this is the "the discussion" group - just that the odd thread gleaning
new users opinions when linked to a certain feature of emacs seems
totally in the realms of "help". Maybe I am too liberal.

>
>> And having read some of the sniping there one can readily see why :-;
>
> I fully understand that, believe me. I have the scars to prove it. ;-)

heh :-) But I know you do since I have read those threads ...

>
> Again, I'm afraid there is no getting around discussion at emacs-devel, if you
> really want the discussion to change Emacs development. emacs-devel is like
> sausage making and politics. If you want to clean it up, you have to enter the
> room and get your hands in the mess.

No doubt and I am not suggesting one should not. I am merely offering my
opinion that this is a good group for certain threads discussing certain
feature which seem somewhat silly to most noobs and some older hands
too.

** I am not ** in any way suggesting this group as a replacement for
serious pros and cons of the majority of emacs features or hard core
design issues.


Lets face it. A LOT of customisations are done to change the default
behaviour of emacs and they are discussed and implemented daily
here. Something like the default buffer list contents is hardly hardcore
emacs devel material until there would be a consensus to change from
those who contribute daily to this wonderfully helpful and resourceful
group.

The bottom line for me is simply : new users do not and probably will
not join emacs development. It is not the end of the world to discuss
issues which new users compete with daily here to a point. Nearly all
additions and customisations are emacs development of a sort.

I think we will probably agree to disagree, but that's life.