Re: [Fsfe-uk] Debian needs Welsh and Irish l10n help

[MJ Ray]

Jon Grant <address@hidden> wrote:
> Who said make people use a computer in a language other than their
> first? I certainly didn't.

I'm sorry that I took replying to a call for Welsh and Irish
localisers with a suggestion that it's not worthwhile because English
is more useful as a suggestion that Welsh and Irish speakers should
not have the computer localised to their language.  So what did it
mean?

[about English language skill of British users of other languages]
> Also, what evidence do you have?

Start at www.languageswork.org.uk for informal.  I'm not familiar with
the formal literature, but a quick search finds articles about the
beneficial effects of multilingualism in a wide range of journals,
from those I would expect, such as The Linguist, to some I was
surprised to find, such as Psychology and Aging.

[...]
> That's a bit strong and inaccurate, you don't need to revert to ad
> hominem to argue your point.

I don't consider linking the argument first presented by you to your
name is an against-the-person (ad hominem) attack.  Saying that the
argument is wrong *because* you support it would be such an attack.

> If we can, we should all strive to be plurilingual in the modern world
> that we
> live, and definitely in a useful way. Without wanting to sound arrogant, I
> speak 3 languages, all of them significantly useful. We should focus on
> useful a head of marginal as Clit highlight in your links.

What's a head of marginal?  It's funny: I didn't read anything about
useful or marginal in those links.  Without wanting to sound arrogant,
how good's your English comprehension?  Cilt's report explictly argues
against "English only" and uses the 21% bilingual Welsh as an example
of good practice!

> Give students and careers advisers the the choice of between students
> being taught in a popular language and having a popular European or
> Asian language as their second tongue and the majority would take that
> option.

I don't understand this.  Take which option?  Choose "being taught in
a popular language", or choose "having a popular European or Asian
language as their second tongue"?  Why not do both?

> My point again then, a common and popular *first language* is more useful
> to someone in their life than a minor uncommon one. Same applies to a
> slightly lesser degree to a second language, it is more useful to the
> person and the populace if it is equally common and applicable....n.

Got any evidence about whether a common and popular first language is
more useful than bilingualism?

Even if true, how does it result in a suggestion that it's not worth
localising to Welsh?  In Wales, Welsh is more common and popular than
any language other than English - and in some parts of Wales, Welsh
seems more popular than English.

Maybe we should look at common and popular globally, but then we'd use
the 850,000,000-speaker Mandarin Chinese instead of the
500,000,000-speaker English (figures from Ethnologue, admittedly a
little inaccurate) and it's IMO clearly barking mad anyway.

> Forcing someone to learn, as a first language a minor language is
> failing the student as much as it is failing yourself.

Forcing?  No, this is about giving another option.  Even if debian is
localised to Welsh or Irish, one still has the choice to use it in
English.  This isn't MS Windows, where switching languages was hell.

Knowing Welsh and English should not prevent one learning other
languages.  Maybe the in-school opportunity wasn't there for some
people you met, but I think that's more to do with problems of the
current school system than the benefits of British languages.

Hope that explains,
-- 
MJ Ray - see/vidu http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html
Somerset, England. Work/Laborejo: http://www.ttllp.co.uk/
IRC/Jabber/SIP: on request/peteble