Re: [Ghm-discuss] The posh talk does not complain with the policy

[Garreau\, Alexandre]

On 2014-08-15 at 16:36, genium wrote:
> ref: https://fr.wikiquote.org/wiki/Pierre_Berg%C3%A9

?

> On 2014-08-15 12:28, Garreau, Alexandre wrote:
>> No, it doesn’t limit freedom of speech, because “freedom” of limiting
>> someone else freedom isn’t a freedom, but a power
>
> Do you mean Free Software and LGBT movements share the same goals,

Yes.

> and should be seen as two facets of the same object?

I would better say that each one is only a part of each one of the two
facets of the same object. But you “should” not, as I can’t impose my
point of view nor my ideas, you have to accept it if you personally find
it correct, and otherwise we can still discuss :)

After all, free software movement can have many interpretations and is
considered as part of many movement by many different people. We can
notice that for instance it is really well considered as a “brother
movement” by really different —even opposed— ideologies/thoughts, like
by libertarians, marxists, leninists, stalinists, national-socialists,
nationalists only or even fascists.

But promoting free software and letting these people integrate librism
into their thought don’t require you to be a nihilist. You can still
acknowledge that neonazis are for free software, promote free software
—for everybody, beyond their ideas— and still being against them :)

> Do I have to support Feminism in order to support Free Software?

It depends of what you mean by “support”. If you mean to “agree”, so
it’s like I just said. If you mean “do activism”, “work for”, “educate
people”, or anything that implies more than just agreeing, no. You don’t
have to fight yourself on all sides at the same time, it would be
counterproductive. Everyone should do what she’s better at doing, what
she likes the most, what she believe the most.

But well, just as hoping most hackers aren’t nazis^Wnational-socialists
(racists, antisemitic, and/or nationalists), I hope they aren’t neither
voluntary sexists, because that would certainly harm a lot free software
community.

And then remind “being against sexism” and “being feminist” are the same
thing, even if some masculinist lobbies are trying to make you think
feminists are a stereotypical minority of deaf and blind hysteric
people.

> On 2014-08-15 12:34, Garreau, Alexandre wrote:
>> actually it’s not your talk that we need to fix, but the policy, which
>
> Do you have to fix this sort of humour?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fLQb60xKL4

I didn’t found that offending nor funny, just maybe based on a bit too
much of ignorance. What we would have to fix is the ignorance of people
finding that funny because misunderstanding the subject.

> http://www.egaliteetreconciliation.fr/Dieudonne-devoile-un-extrait-de-son-spectacle-Asu-Zoa-26699.html

I found hard to get the URL going to what’s actually a youtube link you
could have directly gave (which is, for others:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VNAYLlxjBE>), because of necessity of
enabling potentially nasty javascript and external requests. A youtube
link is readable by many free softwares such as VLC, youtube-dl, quvi,
cclive, minitube, and a lot others. But without the youtube video ID you
need to actually execute proprietary (and potentially dangerous in terms
of privacy) javascript from some companies who we know that it haves
links with NSA and a lot of way too curious (and non privacy-respectful)
governments.

So I just had the time to see this website mostly present extreme right
ideas (you know, the sexists (more: antifeminists), nationalists (even
worst: national-socialist, the slogan says everything: “left of work and
right of values: for a national reconciliation”; everything is here:
reactionnism/traditionnalism, negation of class struggle and of its
international valence, nationalism and nationalist socialism… the very
definition of fascism), fascists one), such as “complementarity”,
“antifa violence”, and negation of things like gender studies (not
“théorie du genre” which actually doesn’t exist as a unique and defined
thing and is just a name used by extreme-right people to discredit
feminists and LGBT ideas), class struggle, etc. and diffusing the ideas
of extreme-right people (though all of those aren’t so
evidently/completely of extreme right, such as Dieudonné where it
remains ambiguous to most of people, but we could recall about people
like Alain Soral (the founder of this actual thing) calling themself
national-socialists).

So cf. what I said on neonazis. Until reading this link, I was thinking
I was going to reach godwin point, now I don’t anymore. A godwin point
is when you *compare*, not when you *notice*.

If nation had even a little of importance for me, I would be ashamed to
have such things brought here by one of the few other French people
expressing themselves here. Fortunately I’m don’t :)

(Tip: check how many people don’t too among organizers, think to how
much sense it would make anyway in any international voluntarist
community.)

<blabla>And after all fascism is by nature an universal antiuniversality
equally present everywhere… or, well, it depends, it seems we have more
near these parts of Europe unfortunately… yeah, precisely in the three
nearest countries of here, ironically :p (but reactionnism creating
itself reaction, personally I prefer to see here in Germany as much
pirate party posters as extreme-right banners than only some
extreme-right banners (and the rest quite invisible) like in France…
good luck (literally and sincerely) to who’s going there too…).</blabla>

Oh and about the video: except the rest of the sketch that can be funny,
the sexist part, since it’s *clearely* sexist, in a time where he’s
already saying a lot of shit and trolling a lot for humoristic purpose,
I think it’s not so nasty in itself if you already know it has to be
interpreted as sexist shit :) The problem, like before, is the
*context*, and the people hearing it. I would say that if it were only
in front of educated people on the subject, there wouldn’t be problems
because it could just be “aha he’s using sexist nonsensical and absurd
unjustified arguments x)”, but it is possible (even probable, because of
his typical audience) that some anti-feminist people, it could just
reinforce their ideas and participate in sexism and especially its
legitimating trough tradition.

So that doesn’t mean we should censor/remove it, because it has its own
event and people attending to it were willing to, but yeah, at least to
fix. It’s just not the humorist we have to fix, but the society hearing
it.

> On 2014-08-15 12:52, Garreau, Alexandre wrote:
>> The chart need more clarification.
>
> Who made ​​the list of banned jokes?

First I don’t know who made the chart, and that’s irrelevant, we need to
fix it, not to blame who miswrote it. And then we need to make a list of
what exclude people or make people feel excluded, not a closed list of
some banned joke that we would have to update every time someone make a
potentially nasty “joke”.

> On 2014-08-15 15:34, Garreau, Alexandre wrote:
>> the hippie spirit in hacker culture at MIT
>
> AFAIK, the hacker culture had his own identity at MIT, see Daniel
> Weinreb, Mike McMahon, David Moon and RMS himself. I read an interview
> of Richard Stallman in which he said that he was not part of the
> hippie spirit of the time. IMO, the free software movement is unique
> on its own.

Yes, nothing is never completely white or black, it’s always more
complicated than it appears ;)

So just as we can’t say free software culture would be essentially
hacker culture which would essentially be sexist, we can’t say hacker
culture is essentially hippie culture, it is of course more than that.

PS: I’m sad to miss the debate about this chart… Great event anyway,
can’t wait for next GHM/CCC (is it near Munich too?) :)

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