Re: [Phpgroupware-developers] We cant continue to work like we do at the moment

[Reiner Jung]

Hi,

at the moment it seems more important what license (GPL or LGPL) will
have which app (JSCalendar, API), we are on the way with the FSF and so
things. Is this here a political discussion or a groupware project?.

Im sure that when Ralf take a look at the JSCalender he look at the
license. In the license he see, that this cool man, write the app as a 
LGPL software. And then he start to implement it. Must a developer be a
lawyer to contribute to the project? Maybe the developer from the JSC
don't know that he break some licenses. 

We can be happy that the developer from HTMLAREA and JSCalendar make his
apps available as Open Source Software and we can use it.

It is OK to make open source software but it can't end in fanatic
discussions, about what is free and what is not free. Is the GPL the
only free license? What is with BSD and others? We want start a
discussion like Stallmann and Torvalds over many years.

The other point is that Ralf Becker lost his CVS rights. I think that
Ralf make a lot for the project and what I can follow, he help many
other developers to solve their problems in the apps. Many things are
flow into the API without discuss it with others. 

When we start, that for all what people want commit, he must first make
a discussion than it will be end in a very slow project. I can
understand this for bigger changes in the API. I'm sure. When all
developers, which commit to the API, and don't ask the others, one time
when they do this, loose their CVS rights, we have nobody more with API
CVS access :-) 


Conclusion:

Come down to the roots, to make a open source groupware project.
Have respect to other developers.
Work together and not against each other.
Stop the political discussions about FSF, GPL, LGPL ...

When the project takes the same energy in the development process and
not in this discussions, it will be better.


Regards
Reiner


Am Mon, 2003-08-25 um 08.52 schrieb Lars Kneschke:
> address@hidden schrieb: 
> >
> 
> Some of my statements may sound harsh or drastic. But please remember that
> english is not my main language.
> 
> >hey,
> >ralf, you imported the jscal to the phpgwapi which is the core of
> >phpgw
> >and were we have strictly agreements and rules, as they are i.e.
> >discussing changes with the other developers _before_ going ahead
> >and
> >comitting them.
> >
> >we have ideas how to handle js in phpgw and it needs to be discussed
> >with the other developers. you can not just commit all what you get
> >in
> >your mind without to talk to the other developers. this is not
> >demoratically, this is called ignorant.
> 
> It is ignorant if he had break something. He did not break anything and many
> users were happy about that feature. It was the right place for this kind of
> feature.
> I you reacted to harsh. If he did break anything, than it would have been
> the right reaction. But he just added a feature, many people where happy
> about and he did break nothing.
> If have such harsh rules, that we can't simply add some little features
> without discussing before, the fun of the project gets lost.
> Ralf also talked with Dave later about this, and agreed to move the code to
> the right place, after the will be some general js-handling functions in the
> api.
> 
> >the author of jscalendar got informed via email about the license
> >break
> >through the additional sentense nad hopefully will change the header
> >info
> >so we can reimport that jscalendar properly.
> Why can't we let this class in cvs until the gets cleared?
> 
> >> 1) Takeing away my commit-right
> >> As you can see from the IRC logs, ceb not even consulted skwashd
> >before
> >> she took away my commit-rights. Takeing away the commit-rights of
> >a
> >> developer is an extrem harsh measure, which in no project, which
> >calls
> >> itself democratic, can be taken without a big consens of the other
> >> developers, just by one (not even elected) leader.
> >>
> >
> >as you should know we do you just have an irc channel to talk ...
> >there
> >are many other possibilities to have a chat, as there are by phone,
> >by
> >mail, another channel maybe .... let me see if i forgot one ;)
> >(sorry but this sounds too funny... *As you can see from the IRC
> >logs*)
> >
> >skwashd and seek3r of course got informed
> Got informed after you took away the commit rights? 
> Anyway, i think that such things need to be discussed in public. I would
> expect a email to the developers list, why anyone's cvs write access become
> removed.
> 
> >ralf, you forgot to tell this is not the first time you went ahead
> >and
> >just committed changes to the api without telling someone. it was an
> >agreement
> >to discuss and descide togehter _before_ adding changes. to remove you
> >from
> >the phpgwapi developer list was the last way to finally stop your
> >acting
> >to behave as phpgroupware would be your private project.
> When did he do this? He is doing much for phpgw at the moment. Should he
> talk about every little thing, before commiting?
> He did no rewrote the whole api, he just added another class. He did break
> nothing. One phone call or email to the developers list, delaring why we
> can't have this class in cvs would also have be a way to solve this problem.
> 
> >> 2) The buying for the new server-box
> >to get an own webserver was the only way to follow the agreement we
> >made.
> >during our discussions concerning the structure change we agreed in
> >having
> >our homepage on a box which is hosted by the fsf. since the fsf isnt
> >able
> >to grant us shell access to one of their boxes we had to get an own
> >one.
> >there hasnt been another choice.
> Ups?! Nothing against dave.
> But you know that we had another choice!!
> Toshiba did sponsor as a server for free. RedHat did sponsor us a RedHat
> Enterpriser distribution for free. Ralf had a chance to put this server for
> free into the internet. I had also a contact for getting this server online
> for free. 
> Don't tell me, that you and dave did not know about it.
> I can also not remeber that there was some discussion before buying some
> server for 800$. Will dave also get his cvs-write rights removed.
> 
> >to avoid nonfree or other software which isnt licensed under gpl/lgpl
> >is
> >the correct way to go as a gnu package ... we shouldnt look at
> >someone
> >else who uses an incorrect way of handling this kind of probs. just
> >because some other projects use nonfree or incorrect licensed code i
> >dont
> >think we should do it the same way.
> I know that is important to have a look at the licenses. But you can also
> just contact the author of this class and remove the code after he refuses
> to change the license.
> 
> >right, ralf, i am unhappy about your ignorance and the missing contact
> >to
> >the other developers before committing changes to our api. i really
> >would
> >like to work in a team where we can trust each other and where we can
> >be
> >sure all developers take each other seriously... i get the strong
> >impression you just start complaining if something doesnt work out in
> >a
> >way you want it. democracy doesnt mean we have to accept all of ralf
> >beckers ideas added to our projects cvs and deal with it afterwards
> >... :)
> Come on! He never thought or stated something like that. The same is true
> for any other developer. 
> Ralf accepted to change the location of his files after dave commits his
> js-class. He accpeted it before you took his cvs rights away.
> i can't understand why you react like ralf is evil. He just contributed some
> code. If we don't like that code, we can change it easily. Or we talk to
> ralf and let him change the code himself.
> 
> >i hope we finally get the 0.9.16 release out after a delay of some
> >month,
> >so we can actually start improving head, do some development. and im
> >more
> >than tired of this fights.
> As long as we don't resolve our internal problems, nothing will change after
> the release.
> 
> Cu
> 
> --
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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