RE: [rgui-dev] RE: Backend Debouch

[Curt Hibbs]

I will pass this back to Laurent... and I'm happy to hear of your SWT-like
direction (I must have missed that post, or skimmed it too rapidly).

Curt

> -----Original Message-----
> From: address@hidden
> [mailto:address@hidden Behalf Of Tom
> Sawyer
> Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 2:51 AM
> To: address@hidden
> Subject: Re: [rgui-dev] RE: Backend Debouch
>
>
> thanks Curt and Laurent.
>
> Curt, please foward to Laurent if need be.
>
> Laurent, please join the list. you have valuable input to offer us, even
> if you can only spare a small bit of your time, it would be very
> helpful.
>
> thank you for this info. it took me a bit of searching to find some good
> information on SWT. let me provide some links for others:
>
> http://dev.eclipse.org/viewcvs/index.cgi/~checkout~/platform-swt-h
> ome/faq.html
>
> http://www.eclipse.org/documentation/html/plugins/org.eclipse.plat
> form.doc.isv/topics_Reference.html
>
> http://www.eclipse.org/documentation/pdf/org.eclipse.platform.doc.isv.pdf
>
> before i get further into this though let me quickly comment on the
> other things:
>
> On Sun, 2002-08-25 at 01:52, Curt Hibbs wrote:
> > While Ruby-Wise may well be an interesting project, its goal is to
> > develop yet another widget set from scratch. Not only developping a
> > widget set is a BIIIG effort (assuming you want it state of the art) but
> >    you also need a large audience to make it viable. And although the
> > Ruby community is growing, developing a widget set for the sole Ruby
> > community will never allo Ruby-Wise to reach the critical mass.
>
> i believe you are farily right about this. but understand that my desire
> to have this backend available relates to advantages that may come from
> having a Native Ruby GUI. Ruby-Wise require only one supporting library
> (if i am not mistaken) and thus is quite light-weight giving potential
> to embeded applications per some recent discussions on Ruby-Talk. in
> fact this is why Ruby-Wise was created. Kero has it running on his
> handheld! but i grant you that his project has a ways to go, i do not
> readily see that Kero is on a fast paced development track. so this
> backend will have to move into the background and others to the
> forefront. but let me be clear Ruby-Wise is just another backend.
> potentially any backend will work with GUtopIa. so its not a matter of
> if, as much it is a matter of when.
>
> > Once wxRuby is ready that would be a good choice. However when wxRuby is
> > ready one can (rightly) argue that we have solved the GUItopia problem.
> > A unique Ruby API to develop GUI on many platforms which is exactly the
> > reason wxWindows was developped in the first place.
>
> >  From a design and architecture stand point, using FOX as a backend
> > appeals the exact same comment. FOX *is* cross-platform on Linux and
> > WIndows and there are persistent rumors that a Mac port could come. So
> > again one could argue that given the fact we have the remarkable FXRuby
> > interface to FOX, the GUItopia problem is already solved.
>
> there is an important distinction to draw here, b/c GUtopIa is much more
> then these other APIs. for the "GUtopIa problem", as you call it, is
> much greater then merely providing a multi-platform GUI with a unified
> API. certainly that is one of the goals, but if that were all we were
> trying to accomplish then why bother? just SWIG up wxWindows and we'd be
> done. you see, that's not enough, there is a whole other level we are
> striving for. for starters we have created what is essentially a
> Decaritive Programming Model for Ruby geared for use with GUtopIa. no
> other GUI API has even comes close to such a thing. Through this
> mechinism we achieve 100% SOC (Seperation Of Concerns) and have a View
> to Model dynamicism par none. and that is just the beginning. we are
> also working on a "meta-level" of sophistication within our API akin to
> Amrita (an HTML template tool). with this, the very content and
> structure of data itself will lend itself to the GUI design. These are
> just two of the "order-of-magnitude" differnces we are trying to make in
> GUI programming (albiet possibly the two most important). so i must
> disagree with your observations here. GUtopIa represents a whole new
> paradigm.
>
> > ParaGUI belongs to the same family as FOX and wxWindows. I wonder why
> > these people didn't use one of them instead of starting yet another
> > project... Oh well, they probably have fun! But it will take time and
> > effort before it reaches FOX or wxWIndows maturity. Let alone the Ruby
> > interface.
>
> ParaGUI is, like Ruby-Wise, another potential backend, and carries with
> it its own advantages as well, mainly this is the simple fact that it is
> built on top of OpenGL. think 3D acceleration, think super multimedia
> effects, think game design. and along with ParaGUI we are working on
> integrating RUDL as an extension to the GUtopIa API. We're talking, yet,
> again, a whole new league of GUI API. by the way, ParaGUI is actually
> more mature then i described. it turned out that my installation was
> flawed. you should see some of the stuff this thing can do! i was
> adjusting a scrollbar and watching windows fade in and out of existence.
> really awesome stuff.
>
> > I do not participate to the discussion on the gutopia-dev ML (want to
> > remain focused on FreeRIDE) but 6 months after the intense discussion
> > that took place on the Rouge mailing list my opinion has not
> changed at all.
> >
> > I still believe that the right approach for Gutopia is to be a Ruby
> > clone of the Eclipse SWT Widget Library. These guys have done a
> > remarkable work from a design, architecture and engineering standpoint
> > and they got it right.
> >
> > One of the big advantage of the SWT approach compared to the FOX,
> > wxWindows, ParaGUI... approach is that SWT uses the native widget set of
> > the platform it runs on which immediately gives to the application the
> > native look and feel of the platform it runs on. This is to me a killer
> > advantage.
>
> actually this has me sort of chuckling, becasue not only have we dumped
> wxWindows, in favor of pursing a more direct interface to native
> platforms, but in reviewing the SWT control/widget API i was amazed at
> how similiar some of the widgets we are implementing are to their's.
> many of the names are even exactly the same. so you'll be happy to know
> that we are indeed taking the SWT approach. funny, this was just
> determined a couple of days ago, when i awoke with a "bright idea" as i
> put it in my post about it.
>
> > For those on gutopia that haven't yet looked into making Gutopia a Ruby
> > clone of SWT I do encourage them to consider this approach. SWT
> > currently support the following backends: gtk, Qt, MSWin32, Photon (QNX
> > Gui) and Java AWT. It offers a unified API for all these.
>
> ...
>
> > Hope I haven't been too harsh in this message. At least people know what
> > I believe in now ;-)
> >
> > Clone Eclipse SWT guys! Clone it! Go, go...
>
> well Laurent, i hope you're not to disappointed. we won't be cloning
> SWT. but be comforted in the fact that GUtopIa is turning out much like
> SWT in many ways. and now that we know about SWT, we will be borrowing
> from it, i can tell you that! SWT is a very valuable resource, and i
> like much of what i've read about it so far. but you must understand, we
> have good reasons not to simply clone SWT....we are creating something
> better...something even the SWT people will envy. :-)
>
> thanks so much for you input. your words are a great asset --SWT will be
> very useful to our work.
>
> ~transami
>
>
>
>
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