Re: Development environment

[glen e. p. ropella]

At 10:19 AM 1/7/00 +0100, you wrote:
> I don't agree with your implications.  First, not the going from
> Java to ObjC is the path from multilingual to monolingual, but the
> original writer's insisting on IDE is, IMHO.  I'm using an editor
> (vim here) for all languages so I don't have to learn a new IDE
> when switching --- also thanks to the high availability of text IDEs
> like GNU make, a good shell with history/aliases/scripting etc.

Writing code with the Java layer of Swarm is multi-lingual.
In order to understand the API as it's currently used, you
really have to be able to read ObjC, if not modify it, code
with it, and debug it.

I agree that using a single IDE is analogous to going
monolingual.

> Also, what do you mean: Java is multilingual and ObjC is not?  You
> can link either with other object files like C/ASM etc.  The broadness
> of GCC front ends assures that.

Ooops, I explained that too soon.  See above.  Granted,
one *can* link either language with other languages.  But,
Swarm programmers are not incentivized to do so because
of our placeholders for things like Graphs and such.  As
we make our way towards being a simulation *engine* rather
than a simulation *toolkit* (which we've started to do by
taking the "Hydra" approach, coined by Marcus), Swarm
programmers will be incentivized to link with other tools
and languages.

Using the Java layer for Swarm forces the programmer to
think about what's in the engine and what's in the app.
This is inherently multi-lingual, whereas when using ObjC,
users tend to try to do everything in ObjC and take less
of an integrative approach.

> Finally, please elaborate on why ObjC is a backward step /wrt Java.
> If you meant the sophistication of accompanying frameworks, please
> say so, but then, this is no language issue.

It's a backward step for two reasons:
1) Java is a newer technology that takes advantage of and
builds upon the cogitation of lots of people about how
programming should be done.  Not that following with this
memetic progression is necessarily a wise thing to do, mind
you; but it is a progression and by using ObjC as your main
development language, you are not participating in this
progression.  (So, maybe it's more appropriately termed
standing still rather than "stepping backward".)
2) Java has *lots* of people developing it (and extensions
to it) and *lots and lots* of people using it.  ObjC is
very unlikely to ever be as popular as Java.  Granted, some
other smalltalk-like language might take over or there will
be some other language after Java, but the probability that
that follow-on language will be ObjC is pretty small.  So,
even if you don't buy (1) above, you have to buy the fact that
there are people out there developing Swing widgets and there
are no (or much fewer) people developing ObjC widgets.

Anyway, none of this has anything to do with aesthetics.  I,
personally, think ObjC is a better language than Java.  I like
it better, I program faster, and I can do more (except for
some of the net-features).  But, it is a fact that, if you're
already familiar with both Java and ObjC, then restricting yourself
to ObjC programming is not a good idea.  I would also argue that
restricting yourself to Java is not a good idea, though it's
more defendable than sticking to ObjC.

glen
p.s. And you're wrong, it is a language issue.  It's a social
systems issue.  Programs are written by humans.  Humans use
languages to build those programs and to navigate social systems.
The language the people use affects/effects (the latter is just
is appropriate as the former) the social system and the humans,
and loops back onto the language.... vicious circles.

--
glen e. p. ropella =><= Feeding the hamster wheel.  Hail Eris!
Home: http://www.trail.com/~gepr                (505) 424-0448
Work: http://www.swarm.com                      (505) 995-0818

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